To think that the EU have done more to endorse Brexit in the last 2 weeks than the UK managed in nearly 5 years

[Butterflyfluff]

I’ll start by saying I’ve never thought Brexit was in the long term interest of the UK and still don’t

But dear God, the EU’s behaviour over vaccinations and, in particular, the blatant prejudice around the Astra Zeneca vaccine has done more to endorse the UK leaving than anything that has been said in the UK before, during and after the vote

Epiphany no it’s about the individual contracts - you’d have to get the India AZ U.K. one

I think the EU has probably created nationalist sentiment in Germany and made existing problems worse in France.

@Umbivalent

No, it's about India not being MASSIVE HYPOCRITES

India also isn't handing anti-vaxxers a load of ammunition. Oh, and last time I looked, India hadn't criticised us for the speed of the MHRA licencing vaccines.

Yes. And Britain isn't have their arm being twisted and our relations are still friendly.

@MarshaBradyo so the EU export ban clearly violates the contact with U.K. and AZ in Europe that you haven’t seen, but the Indian export ban doesn’t violate the contract with U.K. and AZ in India that you also haven’t seen.

That clears it up....

Also the reciprocity ban is the issue here

India haven’t imposed that but their contract could legally give them access to the 5m before U.K.

[quote EpiphanySoul1]@MarshaBradyo so the EU export ban clearly violates the contact with U.K. and AZ in Europe that you haven’t seen, but the Indian export ban doesn’t violate the contract with U.K. and AZ in India that you also haven’t seen.

That clears it up....[/quote]
How do you know what people have seen? You obviously don’t as you are unaware that some AZ contracts are online

Maybe google before and read before being patronising

The Indian government haven't been going on and on about how rubbish the vaccine is that they now want to ban the export of?

This will happen when the pandemic is over. That’s when the Indian gov will start marketing it’s Indian vaccine as superior and offer it up as cheap as chips to the masses, while rich folk pay extra to get Astrazeneca or Pfizer vaccines.

This thread is more full of people with half the picture and ready to insult.

Glad to have cleared it up that you posters couldn’t care less about it U.K. vaccines become short and your vaccine drive stalls - you only care about slagging off the EU for perceived slights against the U.K. most of which are as you view the AZ vaccine as your baby for some reason.

@EpiphanySoul1

Glad to have cleared it up that you posters couldn’t care less about it U.K. vaccines become short and your vaccine drive stalls - you only care about slagging off the EU for perceived slights against the U.K. most of which are as you view the AZ vaccine as your baby for some reason.

No that’s in your head as you haven’t read up

@EpiphanySoul1

Glad to have cleared it up that you posters couldn’t care less about it U.K. vaccines become short and your vaccine drive stalls - you only care about slagging off the EU for perceived slights against the U.K. most of which are as you view the AZ vaccine as your baby for some reason.

This thread is about the EU. Had you not noticed?

@Umbivalent can you point me toward the thread slagging off India for their export ban? Oh wait there isn’t one... because you only care about slagging off the EU.

@MarshaBradyo
maybe you should read the last few posts on this thread!

@HannibalHayes

Maybe the withdrawal agreement? You know, that "oven ready" deal that Boris promised us was wonderful. That requires us to do customs checks?

Really, this is why I can't be arsed.

Going to hide this thread now, the stupid might be contagious...

There is

contractual law -English contracts concluded between Britain and AZ
contractual law - Belgian contracts concluded between the EU and AZ

customs law -the EU allows EU MS to block exports of AZ vaccine
customs law -the UK sets its own laws but has not blocked exports of AZ vaccine

[quote EpiphanySoul1]@Umbivalent can you point me toward the thread slagging off India for their export ban? Oh wait there isn’t one... because you only care about slagging off the EU.

@MarshaBradyo
maybe you should read the last few posts on this thread![/quote]
You're right, we don't want to slag off India. I wonder why that is?

@MarshaBradyo

Also the reciprocity ban is the issue here

India haven’t imposed that but their contract could legally give them access to the 5m before U.K.

Yes. But of course, Britain and India are still talking to each other. Honestly, the EU are akin to someone who tries to punch you, misses, and then asks if you can be friends and can they eat your lunch as they forget theirs.

@Umbivalent I would say it’s due to the nasty anti-EU sentiment that is becoming more and more prevalent on mumsnet. Thank you for at least being honest instead of disguising it as concern for EU citizens/ concern for U.K. vaccinations.

I’ll leave you to it

[quote EpiphanySoul1]@Umbivalent I would say it’s due to the nasty anti-EU sentiment that is becoming more and more prevalent on mumsnet. Thank you for at least being honest instead of disguising it as concern for EU citizens/ concern for U.K. vaccinations.

I’ll leave you to it[/quote]
I’m very concerned about impact on U.K. rollout. Which so far has been going well.

@MarshaBradyo
Of course all the Covid vaccines has been wonderful developments. But I wouldn't particularly deify AZ or try to portray AZ as Albert Schweitzer relative to the other vaccines developers/ manufactures. The at cost bit for the whole world, which Johnson & Johnson are also doing, may be moot. It may only be for a little bit longer. It won't be charity in perpetuity on the behalf of Oxford/AZ for the poorer nations either. If and when they get their fair share of vaccine doses, then the manufacturer won't be taking a hit on the profit. I don't think that is wrong.

Is that good for the poorer nations. Yes. If can get their supplies on an equal basis to the wealthier ones. Good PR: going on like they are all sainted charitable endeavours and will be offering up good works in perpetuity.

[quote Cailleach1]@MarshaBradyo
Of course all the Covid vaccines has been wonderful developments. But I wouldn't particularly deify AZ or try to portray AZ as Albert Schweitzer relative to the other vaccines developers/ manufactures. The at cost bit for the whole world, which Johnson & Johnson are also doing, may be moot. It may only be for a little bit longer. It won't be charity in perpetuity on the behalf of Oxford/AZ for the poorer nations either. If and when they get their fair share of vaccine doses, then the manufacturer won't be taking a hit on the profit. I don't think that is wrong.

Is that good for the poorer nations. Yes. If can get their supplies on an equal basis to the wealthier ones. Good PR: going on like they are all sainted charitable endeavours and will be offering up good works in perpetuity.[/quote]
Actually, hearing the vision from the Oxford team I think it was high up there in terms of good. Have you heard them talk about it?

AZ will hopefully see reward at some point, I’m sure they will. But I couldn’t knock any company taking an at cost position when others are taking market rate profit.

There’s a lot of criticism for a vaccine that came from a very good start. It seems to attract it for some reason.

I think rather importantly for developing nations then you have to look at the dose commitments from particular countries to COVAX.

For example, we know that Britain does not need 400m doses. But it has them at cost, and so many those deliveries will go to developing nations at cost that Britain paid. So over ordering vaccine,certain nations like Britain will have secured the cost, and be keeping their commitments, as will Oxford/AZ.

Of course this depends on the doses being available. If the EU decides that it will engage in export bans, then dose availability will go down to Britain, and thereafter, fewer doses at cost for COVAX.

The EU are desperate. I get that. But they have and had the resources to do better than this themselves and they still have not licensed factories to produce vaccines. Factories that could be supplying them but aren't and why?

Undoubtedly no vaccine company or pharma will be interested in any kind of investment, which a stupid result since EU MS need vaccines and COVID is likely to need new vaccines in the coming years. Foolish.

Yes, in a situation where there is a desperate shortage of something and you need friends, write a grabby law that has annoyed the people who can help you best. Brilliant.

Nothing wrong with pharmaceutical manufacturers making a profit. That is what they are in business for

Visions and PR are one thing. Not criticism as such, but not rose tinted glasses or beatification either. Maybe that view comes across as criticism All very nice to forgo profit for a while, Johnson & Johnson too. I don't think J&J are a charitable body either.

Abridged version: the EU bureaucrats have decided to play playground bully, largely because they are faced with the PR disaster that is the idiots who exited their party running a very effective national vaccination programme. They haven't corrected their (fairly rabid) anti-vaxxers, nor attempted to trade evenhandedly with the ROW. And now, continental Europe is facing another wave of contagion.

@Cailleach1

Nothing wrong with pharmaceutical manufacturers making a profit. That is what they are in business for

Visions and PR are one thing. Not criticism as such, but not rose tinted glasses or beatification either. Maybe that view comes across as criticism All very nice to forgo profit for a while, Johnson & Johnson too. I don't think J&J are a charitable body either.

Yes of course not sure I implied otherwise re profit

It’s easier to split Oxford team and AZ agreeing to it imo

Yes it’s worth applauding the team that had the vision and convinced others to follow their lead

If you can’t do that for an excellent team who produces a working vaccine very quickly when can you?

Maybe it’s no big deal for some and just filed under PR spin.

@EpiphanySoul1 india contract is different thats why and the uk are not the ones using aggressive tactics or words that is coming from some in the eu ( many european leaders don't agree with it even)
Contracts do matter as thats what you base your own contract or roll out on this case
Will it be ok if eu block pfizer and some here don't get a second dose ?

AZ was always a more workable option in distribution terms, simply because it only needs a fridge rather than a dedicated ultra-cold distribution chain. For most of the world, it is the lifesaving version. The Pfizer vaccine may be superior in preventing COVID, by a hairs-breadth, but it's hardly viable in Mali or Mongolia.