To think that the EU have done more to endorse Brexit in the last 2 weeks than the UK managed in nearly 5 years

[Butterflyfluff]

I’ll start by saying I’ve never thought Brexit was in the long term interest of the UK and still don’t

But dear God, the EU’s behaviour over vaccinations and, in particular, the blatant prejudice around the Astra Zeneca vaccine has done more to endorse the UK leaving than anything that has been said in the UK before, during and after the vote

Well I haven’t and don’t agree with it but you think it’s ok. So we differ there.

I’ll be glad when people stop focusing on U.K. so much for outpouring of dissatisfaction.

And we get economic growth again

@EpiphanySoul1

US now investigating whether AZ provided incomplete data from the trial. awaits posters calling US evil and out to get the British

Oh God, I've just seen this. Very worrying for AZ after everything else.

cryh All of the doom mongering that has been going on for years is really pointless. The EU are having a tantrum because they have screwed up the vaccine programme. It will blow over. Although the damage to their reputation and creditability may not be forgotten, not by their own citizens and not by the rest of the world.

Oh hey @Itsalonghaul !

What do you make of the news from the US this morning? They say that AZ may have fudged the numbers on the vaccine's efficacy. They haven't even approved it yet and they're sitting on all those doses they don't even want and have an export ban to stop them being used by people who do!

I had my vaccine on Sunday, it was an AZ vaccine, I am delighted to have it and am 100% confident it will work. Does that help?

@QuentinInQuarantino its all may of at moment no proof as yet
But yes I don't understand why the us don't send them countries that have approved use as they have no plans to use them anytime soon by looks of it .
Uk and Eu have done there own studies on the not for profit vaccine so not sure we need the US validation as such , but yes why not send those vaccines where needed

I am extremely confident in the studies and the evidence we already have here on all of the vaccines. I have no doubt this will be sorted out in the US, and updated. Usually the vaccine journey is not played out in public and globally!

I’ll be glad when people stop focusing on U.K. so much for outpouring of dissatisfaction

I'm sorry but this is bizarre. The only people focusing on the UK are in the UK, and this thread (and many many others) is literally hundreds of Brits complaining about the EU.
The fact that you can then complain as you do about the poor UK being targeted is just.....bizarre.

The talk about "doom-mongering" is just the same as the years of "project fear" nonsense. It wasn't project fear, it was all real. This is not doom-mongering, its the reality of what is going on.

@jellybellybanana I think when the eu have threatened to block vaccines we have paid for from private companies then we have something to complain about.
Some european countries do not agree with it either ,

@jellybellybanana

I’ll be glad when people stop focusing on U.K. so much for outpouring of dissatisfaction

I'm sorry but this is bizarre. The only people focusing on the UK are in the UK, and this thread (and many many others) is literally hundreds of Brits complaining about the EU.
The fact that you can then complain as you do about the poor UK being targeted is just.....bizarre.

The talk about "doom-mongering" is just the same as the years of "project fear" nonsense. It wasn't project fear, it was all real. This is not doom-mongering, its the reality of what is going on.

You might find it so but I assume you’re o/s. And yes it’s wearing so I’ll be glad when people just concentrate on own recovery.

@jellybellybanana or do you think its ok that the eu do this and are totally justified
Someone who can never see any wrong in anything I find hard to believe , I can support a political party for example the chances of me agreeing with everything is small
Criticism where it is due is fine, I don't believe this is all payback for brexit or such like , just desperation more so but I do on this occasion think the Eu are the ones who have messed up here

@Itsalonghaul yay! I'm getting my AZ this week too and very pleased and excited and grateful. Especially grateful to Spain for prioritising bad looking after it's teachers because I'm early thirties so I'd have been a long way off otherwise.

@donewithitalltodayandxmas although personally I disagree with an export ban, you must be able to see it from the POV of an EU citizen? They're making the vaccines, they've also paid for the vaccines.

I consider myself to be fairly impartial as a half Brit half Spaniard and it's very uncomfortable up here on the fence!

And yes it’s wearing so I’ll be glad when people just concentrate on own recovery

Perhaps say that to the 95% of this thread who are frothing at the EU rather than on the 5% who aren't?

The EU are not threatening the UK or trying to get at them or retaliating or anything else. They are putting their members interests first and exploring all possible ways to vaccinate their citizens. They are doing their job.

The UK is outraged when anyone thinks they shouldn't put themselves first, but doesn't appear to understand that the EU needs to do exactly that.
Also see the outrage at the possible Indian decision to keep their vaccines for themselves over sending them to the UK....what do you expect? You put yourselves first, so is everyone else.

@jellybellybanana

And yes it’s wearing so I’ll be glad when people just concentrate on own recovery

Perhaps say that to the 95% of this thread who are frothing at the EU rather than on the 5% who aren't?

The EU are not threatening the UK or trying to get at them or retaliating or anything else. They are putting their members interests first and exploring all possible ways to vaccinate their citizens. They are doing their job.

The UK is outraged when anyone thinks they shouldn't put themselves first, but doesn't appear to understand that the EU needs to do exactly that.
Also see the outrage at the possible Indian decision to keep their vaccines for themselves over sending them to the UK....what do you expect? You put yourselves first, so is everyone else.

I see it as a contractual issue. It’s between AZ and EU and what the contract allows.

"I see it as a contractual issue. It’s between AZ and EU and what the contract allows."

Yes AZ hugely overpromised and it's shameful. Other such failures have been hugely criticised (Dido Harding, UvdL) but the UK is on the happy end of the AZ mistakes so is standing very still to keep the boat from rocking.

But, in a state of emergency there is precedent for nation states to seize control of private goods for the good of the nation. I'm not saying it should happen as the cons outweigh the pros (IMO) but it's more complex than just private contracts.

Think of all those beautiful brand new white star cruise liners hastily repainted in camouflage and languishing in ruins on the floor of the med.

It’s up to the EU. If they put in a ban in, in turn so shall we. It is that bad. I hope it does not happen.

@LexMitior what will you ban and why? I can understand why the EU wants an export ban - they need to vaccinate their vulnerable and elderly and are lacking in supply. U.K. have already vaccinated their vulnerable and elderly and are now vaccinating under 40’s.

So the ban would purely be a tit for tat or what would the reasoning be?

@QuentinInQuarantino well actually no not really as the eu haven't made the vaccines a private company has , and you could then argue what if belgium or netherlands said well actually their made here we will get them first?
Contracts are contracts and the eu pay good money to people to sign these contracts and make them robust
The uk also put a lot more money into setting up etc hence why further ahead , although I have read that the uk have sent experts out
The issue seems to be not enough so surely all efforts should of been put into how we can speed up , what can we do to help , uk what have you learnt etc?
You can't put a ban in place and take someone elses paid for vaccines just because you have also paid , plus like so many have said components come from all over , so what if a like for like approach
Have the the eu asked the US for help ?
The threats made by certain eu leaders os whats got us here , it's not even agreed through a lot of europe that this is the way to proceed

@EpiphanySoul1 no the uk haven't vaccinated their elderly and vulnerable most have had one dose
I fall in the vulnerable my second dose is die in june ? Why don't the eu introduce the longer gap like the uk
Also a pfizer component is made in the uk and sent to eu
The companies themselves have warned against such bans

@jellybellybanana so the eu are not threatening to put an export ban in paid for vaccines ? You know thats not true
How can you say that , that is exactly what has been said
Will you be ok if the uk then bans vaccine components to the eu and sends them elsewhere ?

"I see it as a contractual issue. It’s between AZ and EU and what the contract allows."

It isn't that simple.

On the contractual level, it looks very much as if AZ have overstretched themselves - they are not able to perform all the contracts they've signed. They are going to have to breach one or more of them (or, more realistically, renegotiate their terms). There is no law prescribing which contract should be performed and which should be breached. Lots of people seem to think that there's a rule that the first-signed contract should prevail - not correct!

The power of the EU/ individual countries to ban exports in the EU/national interest is entirely separate to the underlying contract law position. If exports are banned, the exporter/seller is unable to perform its contract (in legal terms, it is frustrated or its performance becomes unlawful) and will then seek an alternative buyer.

@jellybellybanana even some european leaders don't agree with the eu stance on this , yet you can see nothing wrong
So the uk people awaiting second doses who have had their first don't get them because the eu ban the vaccines contracted and paid for by the uk and you think thats perfectly ok
What if the uk retaliates and says no components sent then and withdraws the help it is giving by sending experts out etc that would leave everyone in a mess , can you not see that?

@LexMitior

It’s up to the EU. If they put in a ban in, in turn so shall we. It is that bad. I hope it does not happen.

The power to ban exports doesn't arise on a "tit for tat" basis - don't the government have to show some national interest/public policy basis for restraining the export?

I'd venture to suggest that restraining the export of ingredients, thereby preventing Pfizer from manufacturing the vaccines that we need for our 2nd doses, is unlikely to qualify.

I expect all European countries will have caught up with each other on vaccinations, one way or another, by the end of summer.

o the eu are not threatening to put an export ban in paid for vaccines ? You know thats not true How can you say that , that is exactly what has been said

I didn't say that, but I think that's the charecterisation of what is happening from the UK side, and over-simplistic interpretation.

The UK has been very clear that they want all their vaccines and they come first, and that they expected their orders filled before anyone elses. The EU is not going to sit back and say, ok no problem, we'll just wait, are they?
The EU is considering stopping AZ from going from the EU to the UK, because AZ is supplying the UK at the expense of the EU. Which is not ok.
There is no doubt the UK would do the exact same thing if they needed to.

@donewithitalltodayandxmas it's disappointing you can't imagine the shoe being on the other foot.

I can and it isn't pretty. If the UK, with its tragic death rates were hosting two factories making 000s of doses but having to send them all to the EU? There would be cries of "they're murdering us for Brexit."