To think that the EU have done more to endorse Brexit in the last 2 weeks than the UK managed in nearly 5 years

[Butterflyfluff]

I’ll start by saying I’ve never thought Brexit was in the long term interest of the UK and still don’t

But dear God, the EU’s behaviour over vaccinations and, in particular, the blatant prejudice around the Astra Zeneca vaccine has done more to endorse the UK leaving than anything that has been said in the UK before, during and after the vote

@jasjas1973 - that doesn't add anything, does it? It really outlines that the British don't have to send anything to the EU except if it is feeling very nice, because normal commercial terms apply in their contracts and it was better done that the EU procurement.

As discussed, the difference in outcome is due to the fact the US and UK developed this from birth, taking the risks and recouping the benefits. That is commercial life and capitalism, with handy effects that some of the vaccines will be very cheap for the developing world.

The EU have made a failure of this. I assure you had they any mechanism of forcing supplies out the UK they would have played it by now. As it is, it seems the Dutch are supporting the awkward squad UK. Good. Some wise heads still involved at least.

If I had a penny for every poster who:

• Believes all factories and businesses based in the EU belong to the EU
• Thinks that because a variant is named after a certain place it actually originated in that place
• Thinks that having one dose of vaccine means you’re “50% vaccinated”

I’d be a fucking millionaire by now!

Or do you believe that Covid-19 came from a Bio weapons lab in Colorado and didn't originate in China?

Absolutely not! That sounds more like the sort of thing you would believe!

OK donewithitalltodayandxmas, are you trying to tell me that most racists didn't vote for Brexshit? Nor that Faragist and his ilk didn't target them specifically?

If you are then you're a liar or an idiot...

@donewithitalltodayandxmas agree the EU need far more doses but the UK has tied down well over 400m, far more than we need.

Govt has made it clear they want to vaccinate the entire UK population, twice, and only then will look at allowing export of vaccine, so saying 20 & 30 somethings get 2 doses but other countries vulnerable can die waiting.
Don't really understand how anyone who calls themselves civilised can agree with that.

The uk variant was proven to be widespread in Kent by November, the Govt did nothing, it then spread throughout the UK, seeing uk death rates approach 2000 per day, it then spread to europe, which is what we are seeing now.

@jasjas1973 you can't admit that the eu have got this wrong even a little can you?
So uk was at fault for allowing it to run rampant and mutate but now its running rampant in the eu thats not their fault?
( which I don't think it is on either ways tbh) in fact the uk has had some of the stricter rules for longer , some countries household mixing has never been stopped for example
But you can't actually say yes actually on this they got it wrong ?
Also there is no scientific proof yet where variants come from, they may spread somewhere quicker doesn't mean they originated there
Also I think only denmark who is slightly better even but at least comparable with checking for variants and spotting them etc
Uk has mad mistakes but vaccinations isn't one of them

The proof, if anywhere needed, is that the UK's infection and death rate was way ahead of anything on the continent in Dec/Jan and testing showed that europe had few English variants in December.

And I’m afraid that isn’t proof at all. Like I said before, it’s interesting how the variant was discovered in Kent, a major port and the county with the closest connection to um, er... Europe!

@jasjas1973 it wasn't widespread in november thats when it was spotted , the eu have also bought more doses than they will ever need , both for valid reasons
And hasn't boris today agreed to allow some vaccinations
The eu claim they will have everyone vaccinated by end of the summer? How is that different than the uk ?

the difference in outcome is due to the fact the US and UK developed this from birth, taking the risks and recouping the benefits. That is commercial life and capitalism, with handy effects that some of the vaccines will be very cheap for the developing world

By the time the developed world vaccinates itself twice over, the developing world would have all had CV.
Estimates are that most poorer countries wont get vaccinated until after 2022, if at all.

Of course all this means is that CV is very likely to mutate, in which direction we do not know.

Trying to take the heat of the debate somewhat, the lesson is actually pretty clear that vaccine companies oversold what they could do. Vaccines are hard to make and the manufacturing takes a very long time to upscale to factory level. Even then when you have done that, you will still need further capacity to produce to meet the claimed contracts.

The truth is that the UK will not get 400m doses by the end of the year. Nor will the EU get a fraction of what it has ordered either, indeed very much less.

We are all living in a fantasy in other words - but one where the contractual terms really mattered.

The uk variant was proven to be widespread in Kent by November, the Govt did nothing

What do you mean, did nothing? You seem to have conveniently forgotten that we went into lockdown in early November.

The fact remains, that if the EU had got their act together over the vaccine rollout as the UK has done, we’d all be in a far better off place than we are now.

@jasjas1973 you also
Are aware I assume that those 400m doses are not sat in storage we don't physically have them and some are not even approved as of yet
We also have pledged to donate spare doses to covaz to countries that can't actually afford them

@LexMitior very true and this is the thing they cannot be made as quick as needed
The better thing to do would be to try and work together going forward to maximise production , manufacturing and doing the least possible to affect suppljes
Im not anti europe and on the fence with the eu , I can see pro's and cons
But the eu got it wrong with contracts here and obviously securing for many countries has its pitfalls, its a lot easier arranging for one ( well 4 in uk )

Perhaps if the UK has excess vaccines to give away, we shouldn’t send any of them to the EU but to poorer countries, who have far fewer means of obtaining them than the EU.

The fact remains, that if the EU had got their act together over the vaccine rollout as the UK has done, we’d all be in a far better off place than we are now

Finite amount of vaccine in europe, if the EU had got water tight & earlier contracts as we have, the UK would be getting less and the EU more.
I know the EU get stick for how they ve handled this but imagine the chaos if we had 28 european countries all battling for limited supplies?

This idea that the government have been absolved of their horrendous handling of the pandemic just because they (or the NHS) is doing a good job on the vaccine front is laughable.
Reminder: we were literally on our knees only 3 months ago. We had 700,000 cases in 1 week at Xmas. France only has 350k now. We hit 100K deaths ages ago. And the amount of money the gov has thrown at the problem could finance a small country (or the nhs). We’ll be paying for their incompetence for decades.

I think you can see it a bit like a divorce..when a close union is terminated, feelings get hurt, people feel rejected and act emotionally. It doesn't mean they are bad people.

@Suzeyshoes doesn't mean you can't give credit where its due
The goverment did well with regards to securing vaccines , throwing money into development etc etc
The nhs have done well with delivery and logistics
You can think they handled badly in one way but accept when something is also good

Also, just a reminder that the uk vaccines aren’t even approved for long term usage.
EMA slogged their guts out working on the vaccine dossiers, only to have Johnson jump in, use the data, and approve the drugs on an emergency basis. Yes, it worked, but it was a huge risk which could have cost us millions, put lives at risk and if anything goes wrong they’ll be held accountable.

@Dongdingdong that is what we have agreed to do, there are countries that can't afford them and for us that live in the uk or eu we are lucky in that respect although it doesn't seem that way now
@jasjas1973 you never answer my question as to why the eu don't increase the dose schedule as the reason the uk did was because of our numbers being so high and trying to get more people partially vaccinated but we are a very long way from fully vaccinated

@Suzeyshoes johnson didn't approve it the relevant uk bodies did
Its not like he was sat in the bath and signed it off
You could argue the eu rushed it through with less data than the US etc

@jasjas1973

The fact remains, that if the EU had got their act together over the vaccine rollout as the UK has done, we’d all be in a far better off place than we are now

Finite amount of vaccine in europe, if the EU had got water tight & earlier contracts as we have, the UK would be getting less and the EU more.
I know the EU get stick for how they ve handled this but imagine the chaos if we had 28 european countries all battling for limited supplies?

Actually I think this is one point where reasonably you can say that the choice of contractual law was odd by the EU. Why did they conclude all their contracts under Belgian law. This is not jingoism on my part, it is just that strict enforceability is arguably better done with English law. This decision is quite significant in terms of the EU's vaccine access and is not mentioned at all now.

@Suzeyshoes

Also, just a reminder that the uk vaccines aren’t even approved for long term usage. EMA slogged their guts out working on the vaccine dossiers, only to have Johnson jump in, use the data, and approve the drugs on an emergency basis. Yes, it worked, but it was a huge risk which could have cost us millions, put lives at risk and if anything goes wrong they’ll be held accountable.

The EMA are just taking nursery steps in the world of vaccines, aren't they? It is not a secret that the majority of their staff had to be drawn not from London staff as anticipated, but largely had to start from scratch.

The UK has had a longstanding vaccines programme and the expertise to go with it. That too is part of the success here, and explains a decision to take informed risks which the EMA would not.

@LexMitior exactly that its one thing the uk seems to be ok at , testing at the beginning we were way behind the likes of Germany etc

Nobody should say Johnson has done a good job with COVID. I doubt anyone would believe that. But this is not about him is it.

However, people in the UK have done a great job in sourcing, procuring, developing, writing contracts, taking risks and thinking creatively. That's something we can be proud of.