AIBU to ask if we can have a sensible discussion here about Shamima Begum?

[StephenBelafonte]

I just don't understand the hostility towards her by the british government. Surely as a 15 year old she was radicalised and brainwashed.

I genuinely don't understand why the government is so harsh towards her. Unless they know something we don't. I feel so sorry for her.

The issue I have is that Priti Patel is adamant that the UK should deport foreign criminals for their home countries to deal with. Yet we have left one of our criminals for a struggling country to deal with.

I can only conclude that the british intelligence knows something we don't

As is their job.

I have been trying to understand why there has been a public outcry over her but not the numerous other 'brides' and fighters that have returned. To me it seems the Gov. response was alot to do with the public outcry really.

I presume it's because when the three girls travelled to Syria there was a lot of public interest because they were school girls and they traveled together? So when she was found in the camp it evolved from there.

I think that a lot of the lack of sympathy for her comes from the fact that faced with the crimes she committed, she seemed/seems unrepentent. It is not OK to strip her of her British citizenship, though - mechanisms exist to make sure she is arrested as soon as she sets foot in the UK. She is the UK's problem.

Doesn't matter whether we believe she was vulnerable, a child, groomed etc. She is British and therefore has a right to live here, and be punished for crimes as our justice system sees fit.

Why on earth should she be Syria's problem?

And, we have a government and general public opinion that agrees with this when it's 'foreign' criminals in the UK. We can't wait to repatriate people then can we.

The government I think wants to be thought of as tough on law and order and immigration. So it has made much of Shamima Begum in the hope that this is how it is perceived.

Never mind the reality is that more support was given to the Police and more manpower under Labour governments, and that almost all defence and foreign policy cuts have come under Tory governments.

Transcript of Sky News interview with Shamima Begum. Source : Sky News.com

“Was there a point when you started to have second thoughts about your life under Islamic State?

Only at the end, after my son died. I realised I had to get out for the sake of my children - for the sake of my daughter and my baby. Yeah.

Only at the end?

Yeah.

You didn't have any regrets up until that point?

No.

What was it about Islamic State that attracted you? What did you like about it?

The way they showed that you can go [to Syria] and they'll take care of you.

You can have your own family, do anything. You're living under Islamic law.

Did you know what Islamic State were doing when you left for Syria? Because they had beheaded people. There were executions.

Yeah, I knew about those things and I was okay with it. Because, you know, I started becoming religious just before I left.

From what I heard, Islamically that is all allowed. So I was okay with it.

You didn't question that?

No, not at all.

There's a struggle going on in the UK now about whether you should be allowed to come home or not.

Yeah, I know.

What are your feelings about that?

I think a lot of people should have, like, sympathy towards me for everything I've been through.“

If I went to France and committed a crime, I would expect to be tried and punished in France, I wouldn't expect to come back to Britain and be tried here. Why is she any different?

She’s not stateless though. She can seek citizenship in the Netherlands with her DH. What’s her end game? She is also on record as saying she saw heads and it didn’t bother her.

I read there is nothing to stop her from her case being heard remotely but they want allow her lawyers into the camp. Is she imprisoned in the camp. If not why can't she just walk out. I wonder who is paying for these legal people.

Won't

It's heartbreaking. The poor girl.

I really think that people's 'heartbreak' should be saved for the real victims here. It's widely acknowledged that Begum was a member of the Hisbah and no doubt was personally responsible for some pretty horrendous things. My heart breaks for the innocent people who were murdered, tortured, enslaved, abused and tormented as a result of her actions, both directly and indirectly. My heart does not break for her.

I actually suspect that the real reason that we are not looking to bring her back to the UK - which in itself would be fraught with difficulty - is because of the challenges of investigating crimes committed in Syria. It could well be possible that these difficulties could prevent any meaningful prosecution.

If I went to France and committed a crime, I would expect to be tried and punished in France, I wouldn't expect to come back to Britain and be tried here. Why is she any different?

And if France decided not to pursue any criminal charges, would you then be fine with the UK telling you you could never come back home?

Because she left to join terrorists, and I don’t believe for one minute she was groomed. All three knew what they were doing, and knew it was wrong.

Added to her attitude when she was first found, remember she said the Manchester bombing were justified, and only sort of half heartedly apologised when told to be her lawyer. I don’t believe for one minute she is actually sorry.

She can have Bangladeshi citizenship through her father, that’s why her UK citizenship was revoked,. However she doesn’t want to go there , despite her father actually living there, as they will treat her as a terrorist
. She should also be entitled to Dutch citizenship via her husband, you know the Dutch terrorist

She has other options that coming back to the UK.

I don’t mind her coming back as long as she is arrested as soon as she lands, stands trial, and then is jailed for life

@HermioneWeasley

“Teenage mistakes” are things like drinking too much cider and being sick on your parents new sofa

Travelling across continents to join a medieval death cult in their spree of rape murder and torture is not a “teenage mistake”.

I agree. She was 15 - certainly old enough to be over the age of criminal responsibility in the civilised countries that set it at at 14 rather than our ridiculous 10.

And the thing is, she is much older now and yet still doesn't think she did anything wrong.

This is another topic where opposing views will never bend regardless of any arguments or persuasion. Opinions are polarised, I imagine along political lines :

Evil, violent, no remorse, knew exactly what she was getting into, danger to GB, why can't she be Bangladeshi..
vs
Groomed / radicalised as a child, a victim herself, brutalised and traumatised by what she witnessed, Human Right not to be made stateless

I feel fairly depressed and hopeless by the extremes and lack of real listening and exchanging in this and many other debates...

I think a lot of the hostility comes after an interview filmed recently (i.e. in 2019 when she was 19 and no longer a child) when she showed absolutely no remorse and no regret. She essentially said she thought what ISIS were doing was right and she didn't regret going to be part of it...

If she'd shown remorse people might be bit more understanding?

DD1 is 15 now, it's really still so young! They might sometimes sound mature enough to pass as adults but they are absolutely not. I agree with you, OP.

I have zero sympathy for her.

However, I do think she should come back to Britain and face trial and go to prison. And we should thoroughly debrief her to learn what we can about how she was recruited.

As she's a British citizen, it's our responsibility to bring her to justice. Syria shouldn't have to deal with her - they have enough problems.

I don't see why she is our responsibility. She ran away to join a terrorist organisation. Got married to a terrorist fighter who is unlikely to get released any time soon. Even her own parents don't seem to be over enthusiastic for her return

Can you explain then why she is another country's responsibility, if not that of Britain?

I actually suspect that the real reason that we are not looking to bring her back to the UK - which in itself would be fraught with difficulty - is because of the challenges of investigating crimes committed in Syria. It could well be possible that these difficulties could prevent any meaningful prosecution.

I completely agree with this. The cost of any trial would also be high and unpopular with taxpayers.
There is a massive backlog of court cases so she wouldn't be tried for years and this would mean any sentence would be reduced too. If she became pregnant between now and the trial I wonder if that would reduce the sentence too?

I find it a bit distasteful that despite the fact we have lists of radicalised men on govt watchlists given leave to remain, but all the venom and attention goes to a radicalised female schoolgirl.
Don't get me wrong I don't particularly want to welcome her back here either, but I'm not stupid enough to think she's the real problem here.

My sympathy doesn't end when someone commits a crime, particularly when there is coersion and especially when they were a child when it all began. There wouldn't exactly be a choice not to take part in crimes once you were there with Isis. When you weren't being passed from man to man to be repeatedly raped of course.

Begum is only being held to a higher standard than all other male British fighters who have been allowed to return to the UK because of endemic misogyny in the media, politics and general public. It's just absolute bollocks that she is seen as in any way more problematic than all the male fighters who have been allowed to return.

@StephenBelafonte

Just reading through the replies guys steady on!

I can only conclude that the british intelligence knows something we don't

I don’t think the intelligence services have to know anything secret to conclude she would be highly likely to be an expensive and dangerous liability.

I don’t agree with stripping her of citizenship because, as others have noted - we created her, we should take responsibility for that. But I don’t have any problem seeing why a government might not want on their soil someone who has directly supported violent action to promote a fundamentalist regime that sees this country as an enemy, especially when that person continues to profess that hatred.

I think being 15 is a huge mitigating factor, but it doesn’t absolve her of responsibility and it doesn’t lessen the risk she may pose. Despite changes to our laws over the last decade we don’t have a very effective way to stop people who hate the Western way of life from spreading that hatred. And being15 when she left, our ability to detain her under our laws for what she has done will be even more limited. At the same time she’s a martyr figure in many ways and could be a promotional agent for Daesh or an alternative violent, fundamentalist Islamic group. She would have to be under constant surveillance and her contacts constantly checked.

Personally... at 15 years old, she was old enough to know right from wrong. This is a girl who was driven to join the ISIL after watching videos of beheadings. That's not normal. She has seen real life beheadings and was apparently unfazed and unremorseful... her role within the group was to persuade other women to join so she obviously believes in it. I don't want her back here if she still holds those values and believes it's okay to behead people. So far, she hasn't done anything that makes me believe she's changed her beliefs. I think she just wants to come back here because it's more comfortable than her current situation.