AIBU to ask if we can have a sensible discussion here about Shamima Begum?

[StephenBelafonte]

I just don't understand the hostility towards her by the british government. Surely as a 15 year old she was radicalised and brainwashed.

I genuinely don't understand why the government is so harsh towards her. Unless they know something we don't. I feel so sorry for her.

I don't think the average person at 15 could be groomed

Plenty of adults have been brainwashed, scammed or duped which are other forms of grooming really.
Think about how many adults believe in misinformation like QAnon, vaccine and Covid hoaxes etc -- too many

What is her beloved ISIS' policy on errant teenagers joining their enemies then returning?
Their website FAQ isn't clear.

She supported the Manchester Arena bombing.
That’s enough for me, she can stay in the camp forever as far as I’m concerned. Also, where’s her old man (DH) or are we expected to have him as well, another terrorist.

I agree with you @StephenBelafonte. I had the temerity to raise these issues on another forum and I was verbally attacked by just about everyone. I believe racism and sexism are the root cause of the problem.

OP - if you want a sensible discussion you need to engage with the replies.

I've read on here that if she's sent to Bangladesh, she'd be hung for her actions.

While I don't doubt that her living conditions were hell since she left, she made other peoples last lives hell too. I have more sympathy for the Yazidi women and other victims

Just reading through the replies guys steady on!

I can only conclude that the british intelligence knows something we don't

Isn’t the terrorist husband in jail in the Netherlands?

I think the point about being groomed at 15 was that most children from stable backgrounds would know right from wrong abd although they are still immature be appalled at beheadings and bombings rather than running towards it.

Not that a 15 year old is t vulnerable to coercion any more.

@mrssalvatore14

Her skin colour makes no difference, she could be pink or green and I'd still have the same opinion.

She is a threat!

Yes we make silly mistakes as teenagers we don't get on a plane and start chopping people's heads off!

leave her where she is she deserves it!

Did she chop someone's head off?

She is a terrorist. We don't need her in this country if we can avoid having her back. If she has been stripped of her citizenship legally, great. Ideally if we had to have her back we could repurpose an out of the way British territory and send any returning terrorists there. The South Sandwich Islands are nice at this time of year.

Attitudes to SB baffle me.
The comparison with Jack Letts is false as he had another nationality, but SB doesn't and the only other one she could possibly apply for has been denied because she doesn't actually qualify.

Like it or not she was born British and it is illegal to make her stateless, which is effectively what has happened.

There is no doubt in my mind that her background and upbringing may have led her to be very very vulnerable and ready for radicalising. I don't know enough about her home life to judge but at 15 she was groomed and led astray. If she'd been 18 her brain still wouldn't have been fully formed but she would be legally competent to make decisions.

Funny aside though: at 15 or 16 there was a lot of frothing online about Greta Thunberg being way too young to have formed the opinion that the earth's climate is in serious trouble. Far too much influenced by adults in her life and being used as a mouthpiece. I've seen plenty of (social and other) media commentators saying that and then saying that SB absolutely knew, and was mature enough at 15, to make the decisions she did. Very odd, no?

She hasn't expressed remorse for the truly awful things she did. That is her choice. But I, along with most people who think she should be brought back to UK don't want her to be chucked off a plane at Heathrow to go where she wants. What we want is her country to try her in a court of law on the evidence against her. And to face justice, which given the severity of her crimes would be very long if she is found guilty (is it possible in the UK to get a sentence of life without parole?).

Is it possible that she may have to be detained in a secure mental health unit because o rational human should be doing the things she did? (I am assuming that the evidence against her is true and that she is guilty, she pretty much confirms it with her own comments)

The fact that she shows no remorse cuts her out of more lenient sentencing for having seen the error of her ways.

AFAIK radicalised young men have been brought back to the UK and rehabilitated or tried and convicted. What is the reason for treating SB differently? Is she low hanging fruit? Is she being used as a deterrent? (i can't see 15 year olds rationally deciding on balance "oops, i don't want that to happen to me" if they have been successfully groomed as she was)

She is not as much a victim as the victims of her crimes, but I'm pretty sure she is a victim and i think a lot of the attitude against her is irrational. And possibly at least partly because women aren't generally seen to act like that.

@bridgetjones1

FWIW, I personally do believe she's been brain washed, but I struggle with her lack of contrition as an adult

this is broadly where I am at with it all. I think she should be allowed back in and face whatever consequences are appropriate and within the law. The recent "makeover" feels disingenuous and will only lead to the "general" public feeling like she's trying to pull a swift one

Same here. I WANT to believe she would come back and make a valuable contribution to society, but I doubt it. Her comments were shocking and by wearing a hoody and pretending to have changed make me want to ask 'Do you think we're daft?'

@HermioneMakepeace

It's heartbreaking. The poor girl.

She sewed innocent victims into suicide vests so that they couldn’t escape. How would you feel if it was YOUR child who was blown up? Or is it because the victims were foreign and Muslim you just don’t care?

To me, that is the very reason why she should be brought back to this country, not only to face justice but because we should not be expecting other countries, who have already suffered from the actions of our citizens, to continue to accommodate them.

It was handled terribly.
When it first came to press attention I heard a retired senior judge who said the following:
You cannot just strip someone of their nationality.
You have to accept that she was a child herself who was radicalized
If you are "outraged" by her crimes, then the British Justice System can take care of that.

Added to which, if she was white she would have been treated differently

So who would want her living next door? Have her kids over to play? Wouldn’t you be afraid that the children of a radical ISIS loving terrorist would try to influence yours?

Even if she is dangerous or a threat, she is still our danger/threat.

She was born here, radicalised here and had British citizenship only. We let her and her underage friends get on the flight. Why should we be allowed to palm her off on Bangladesh, because of a tenuous familial link.

It's appalling we would feel arrogant enough as a country to push our problems onto poorer, less powerful counties, rather than admit England has a problem with young people being radicalised and tackle it.

I do think 15 year olds, especially from a sheltered background, can be vulnerable and she was groomed, but as to how dangerous she is now - that would be for experts to decide. We aren't making her less dangerous by treating her badly though.

While I don't have sn awful lot of sympathy for her as an individual I worry about the precedent this sets. She's British, she should be tried for her crimes as any other British Citizen would. The people who don't want her back also want the UK to deport foreign criminals. We can't have it both ways. If we want to strip her of her citizenship we also have to accept that other governments may wish to do so to their nationals who commit crimes here. I also worry about the wider implications of any government being able to take away citizenship. Its all well and good if its z government you largely support and trust (which I don't), but an extremist government could do an awful lot of damage if this precedent is set.

I don’t think it’s anything to do with the colour of her skin, through history those committing treason, defectors etc have been punished in the most severe ways. Whether we should at this point in history learn to show clemency is debatable

@AlexaShutUp

The government is harsh towards her because public opinion is harsh. You will no doubt see that in the responses.

I don't have a great opinion of her and I believe that she should be tried for any crimes that she may have committed, but I agree that she was a vulnerable teenager when she was radicalised, and that should have been taken into account.

She was born in Britain, she grew up in Britain, and she was radicalised in Britain. Her nationality should never have been stripped. Whatever people may think about her, she is our problem.

A white teenager would have been treated differently under the circumstances. Whatever else she may or may not have done, the crime that has made the biggest difference in this case is the fact that SB has brown skin.

Yes, agree. This is a complicated and nuanced situation, it's not just an 'evil terrorist' or 'innocent child' dichotomy.

I think it’s a hard one because as far as I know she has never really shown remorse for what she has done

Yes she’s been radicalised and was only young when she was, but I don’t think it’s as easy to say, “let her come home and we can keep a close eye on her”

People manage to disappear when they want to hide even in the U.K. so I guess if she wanted to, she could hide in another terrorist cell and carry on the work

I did some stupid things when I was a teenager - but I didn't runaway and join a terrorist organisation.

Has she left under the age of 10, then perhaps it could be argued that she was not accountable for her actions. But 15 is not too young to understand that murder and torture is wrong.

The government believes she's a threat to the country - she probably is. If she was convinced enough by ISIS to pack up and go over a few years ago, there's a strong likelihood that she'll have been convinced to continue for them on return.

I don't see why she is our responsibility. She ran away to join a terrorist organisation. Got married to a terrorist fighter who is unlikely to get released any time soon. Even her own parents don't seem to be over enthusiastic for her return.