Houseshare problems - tenant's new boyfriend refuses to leave

[FirstAvenue]

Name changed, looking for advice here. I'll try not to go into too much detail.

I own a five bedroom house in a town a fair distance away and I let out four bedrooms under Assured Shorthold Tenancy Agreements. It's an all female house as I have found that way it is generally easier to manage from a distance.

I do everything as professionally as possible, I advertise empty rooms, take references from applicants, tell them the house rules and give the tenants a proper tenancy agreement which states that they have exclusive use of their bedroom and shared use of the communal areas.

One of the House rules states: "Your room is for single occupancy only and boyfriends / girlfriends etc. should only really stay every other weekend." Now it's not that I am a prude, it's just that I have learnt from previous bad experiences that the house becomes overcrowded and untidy and generally starts to smell if the house is over-occupied. It's very hard to let a room if the house smells.

One of the girls, let's call her Ann, got a new boyfriend about six months ago and recently he appears to have "moved in". She says he has not and that she is aware of the house rules, but he is "always there" despite him living nearby. Unfortunately it is not just a case of staying in her room, he seems to spend most of the time watching TV in the living room and has even set his laptop up in the kitchen.

One of the other girls, let's call her Betsy, has complained about his continued presence. Betsy says that she took the house on the basis that it was girls only, and that she feels uncomfortable with him being in the house all the time in his dressing gown.

I've asked Ann to stick to the house rules and to make sure he only stays ever other weekend, and she has at various times in the last two weeks a) denied that he stays there in the week, b) says he does stay over sometimes but the other girls don't mind, or c) says that he is her partner and she wants him to stay as much as possible. It is clear that she is not telling the truth.

Betsy however made a further formal complaint to me last Tuesday, and after a number of texts and phone calls to Ann during which time the boyfriend did not depart, last Friday I had to write an email to Ann asking her to make sure that house rules are obeyed and that her boyfriend only stays two nights a fortnight. I did not get a reply.

Betsy went away for the weekend but when she arrived back last night the boyfriend was there and he was still there this morning. She is now dreading going back home this evening, and it is my understanding that he has now stayed there for 11 consecutive nights. Betsy is now asking me what she should do if he is still there this evening.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to resolve this?

The op will be ok as long as the boyfriend has a tenancy agreement elsewhere.

I would offer Betsy the opportunity to get out of her lease without any issues if she would like to and start the process of evicting Ann in case she decides not to leave willingly in the future. The boyfriend is a squatter so look at what you can do legally on that front.

However, is the house registered as an HMO because it should be and 5 seems to be a magic number in terms of large HMO which requires a license to operate so the very first thing I would be doing in your shoes is making sure I'm not breaking the law (I am a LL but not HMO - that was info from a 2 minute google search).

But he CAN stay over every night if he wants . How would you suggest the landlord polices the number of nights he stays? Short of installing cctv in Ann’s bedroom, she can’t.
Evict Ann , suggest Betsy either sucks it up or moves out . Those are your two options op. Let them squabble if they want. You’re not their mother.
I would suggest getting a cleaner into the house once a week just to maintain the communal areas and to keep an eye on the house for you . When I lived in a house share, we had a cleaner for a few hours every week and in hindsight it was to keep an eye on us all.

Legally your only immediate option is the Covid laws angle. If it's not treated as a Covid law breach, I think your next quickest option is to bribe or otherwise persuade Ann to surrender her tenancy and move out. And if she won't, you're stuck with the long process of eviction.

You're rented it as separate tenancies, so each tenant can have their guests without needing anyone else to agree. Indeed each tenant has no legal power over what other tenants you rent to.

Several posters have suggested you get involved in ways that would make you the one committing a crime, landlord harassment, so beware.

@oil0W0lio

and I broke the 'rule,' which was very unpleasant for the other tenants. (I won't say what it was so as not to derail the thread.) hey that's not on 😡 deliberately taunting us with some juicy gossip and then not telling😮

I second this! @SoulofanAggron please share the gossip

You're a landlord and you think a tenants guest is a squatter? Landlords should have to have a licence because some here need to be educated on the parisitic endeavour they've embarked upon

Short of installing cctv in Ann’s bedroom
But wait☝️ I thought that was how OP got the dirt in the first place🤔

You're a landlord and you think a tenants guest is a squatter?
I think what she means is that she is a hobby landlord ....one of those `accidental' landlords unplanned/unintentional landlording etc

@oil0W0lio

You're a landlord and you think a tenants guest is a squatter? I think what she means is that she is a hobby landlord ....one of those `accidental' landlords unplanned/unintentional landlording etc

Of course the MN 'accidental' landlords, they practically pay for the tenants to live there and never charge extortionate rents

A guest doesnt count as a tenant so she still only has 4 tenants no matter how many nights the bf stays

Depends on the local authority rules. Many LAs require HMOs to be licenced for 3 or more tenants, not 5.

That's the first thing to check - BEFORE serving notice on any tenant.

If you're supposed to be licenced and you're not, you cannot serve a valid S21. If you fuck it up badly enough you could end up having to pay back up to 12 months rent for ALL your tenants, plus a criminal fine.

Get proper legal advice before you do anything.

@SchadenfreudePersonified frankly given betsys strong reluctance to return to the property with him there already suggested to me he's done something out of order (made a pass? Derogatory comments?) or even illegal (harassment? Even assault?) and Betsy doesn't feel safe to return

Nice idea but you really can't put tenants under surveillance it's illegal.

I don't think something that is fast becoming a fairly standard security measure (for those who can afford it) would be considered a problem to be honest!

MC people Pearl clutching about a young woman who due to financial situations needs to be in a house share daring to have a sex life.

In my case a wc disabled woman with a disabled Dd who is about to have to navigate shit like this!

I'm on the side of the THREE OTHER women in the household who did not sign up to share with a couple! And the op (who I am assuming is a woman) and the other 3 tenants who are subsidising the cheeky fucker (who isn't paying rent or bills or indeed contributing in any way!)

Plus I dunno what kinda sex life you have but I've found it's perfectly possible to have sex in the daytime and without staying overnight! Certainly without your sex partner moving in without the agreement of your housemates and not paying a penny towards costs - indeed there's an mn word for that! Cocklodging and this ones not just leeching off one woman but apparently 5!!

@Lockheart actually from a quick look online looking at relevant sites it would appear HMO's may be exempt from sex discrimination laws in terms of being allowed to maintain a single sex abode

It’s ridiculous for Betsy to be messaging you asking you to tell the boyfriend to leave

Really? What about if she has reason to fear this boyfriend? It's a possibility! Or even of Ann - she may well have already tried to address it with them and it's ended up 2 against 1 with the other 2 refusing to take sides (which is pretty pathetic of them if true)

If Ann’s partner was female would that make it all ok?

It would remove 1 aspect of the issue but there would be 3 remaining:

1 financial - being subbed by the others
2 legal for the op - as it could make her liable to legal troubles and fines etc due to the regs around HMO's
3 practical - an additional person taking up space and using the facilities, an extra person using the bathroom etc

The comment about a mother or sister reminds me of a situation I knew of where a younger sister went the same uni as the elder, elder was more responsible sort, younger got herself evicted from her first residence for anti social behaviour, went to stay with elder sister in house share supposedly temporarily but made sod all effort to find somewhere else. Pissed off all the other housemates with things like taking their food, using their toiletries, leaving the bathroom a state and most crucially loud music playing overnight pretty much every night. After a few weeks of this the housemates basically held a house meeting and the sister that she had to go! That if she didn't they wouldn't be in a house share with her the next academic year (this all occurred towards end of the younger sisters 1st year). Elder sister ended up finding somewhere for the younger sister and giving her money for deposit etc. But she knew her housemates meant what they said and she couldn't risk housing issues in her final year. The younger sister started the next year still being a nightmare housemate, but her sister made it clear to her if she got evicted again she wouldn't be putting her up or bailing her out and the younger sister then buckled down and stopped being a twat!

@PatsyStone39 sadly such scenarios - the sexual assault element certainly - are not uncommon, we see them posted about on here fairly regularly

@murbblurb what about betsys and the other 2 tenants rights?!

There ARE a few exceptions to the covid rules on evictions

@cansu you really need to rtft or at least ops posts which you can filter for, it seems fairly likely this boyfriend has effectively moved in but isn't paying anything

@GreenlandTheMovie if what you say is possible in terms of what the op can sue for I suspect even just a solicitors letter pointing out these possibilities and warning that if Ann doesn't eject the cocklodger she WILL be suing may well have the desired result.

Re keys, I seem to recall there are certain types of locks where it's simply not possibly to just get an extra one cut? I'm sure I had one like this in one place I lived and if a key is lost you had to go through a rigmarole to get a replacement - might this be an idea too? Get new locks of this type one key to each tenant and he won't have one?

Thank god the other 2 are finally stepping up! But you need to also op!

You need to confirm whether this chancer has effectively moved in or not - I strongly suspect he has given the proposed new house rules.

Not just for Betsy and the other tenants but for your own sake!

You're likely subsidising this joker and he is potentially putting you at risk of serious legal trouble regarding hmo regs.

If you roll over on this what will they try to negotiate on next? You're going to lose control/respect if they think they can dictate to you.

I agree with this too!

I'm afraid it's why I think landlord should be a protected and regulated occupation, ESPECIALLY with HMO's.

There are too many inexperienced, ill informed, uneducated (wrt to tenants rights and landlord responsibilities) people that are currently allowed to be landlords. I think they should have to learn the laws and regs and pass a test to prove this and be licensed and monitored regularly.

I think there is a very strong possibility Betsy will be moving out ASAP and you'll be losing that income and you'll have a job finding another tenant to take her place and staying when they realise the situation here.

The other 2 may well end up moving out too. Just because they're not speaking up doesn't necessarily mean they're not pissed off! They might be already looking for somewhere else and just want to move on quietly - how are you gonna feel if you're left with what a 5 bed place with 2 people living in it and only 1 paying a single occupancy rate? For 6 months? How much will that cost you op if that happens?

Can you even cover the basic costs on that basis?

Hell! Just give Ann and the cocklodger the house! It might be cheaper! 🙄

If I were Betsy I'd be tempted to stop paying my rent at this point.

Me too

Tomorrow morning op as a matter of urgency you need to get legal advice.

I find it seriously worrying that myself and others have asked about what legal advice you might be able to access eg via landlord insurance scheme, that suggests to me you aren't in any way insured or licensed which I believe you are required to be, I get the feeling this is also what is causing you to be reluctant to take action, I'm wondering if Ann has sussed this and is holding it over you. I hope I am wrong for all your sakes.

The police are not experts in civil law

If something happens/happened to Betsy after op was told of this issue is op in any way liable re a failure in a duty of care?

Ann gave me first a verbal and then a written assurance that her boyfriend was not staying over in the week.

But you did nothing to verify this one way or the other.

Frankly being hours drive away means it would be far more sensible and responsible of you to have an agent keeping an eye on things. There are any number of things that could go wrong that require a quick physical presence by someone with authority to act regarding the property

Re your post at 2309 Op, I'm afraid that rather smacks of you're afraid to deal with this cheeky fucker/s - seems clear to me they are of the "give em an inch and they'll take a mile" ilk. And the communal area thing doesn't protect you from the potential ramifications of being caught in breach of hmo over occupancy regs

It's the tenant's home, they can have whatever rules they like within the law.

in this case it's possible their house rules could well put op in breach of the law.

The op will be ok as long as the boyfriend has a tenancy agreement elsewhere.

I think thats highly unlikely, I reckon he's been bumped from where he was living and Ann has fallen for a sob story "but I looooove him" and he's got his feet (and everything else) under the table at ops property for free

Nice idea but you really can't put tenants under surveillance it's illegal.

I don't think something that is fast becoming a fairly standard security measure (for those who can afford it) would be considered a problem to be honest!

You don't think it would be considered a problem for a landlord to put up surveillance cameras in their tenants' homes?

Fucking hell.

@Lockheart actually from a quick look online looking at relevant sites it would appear HMO's may be exempt from sex discrimination laws in terms of being allowed to maintain a single sex abode

Some are because they're homeless accommodation for vulnerable women, refuges etc. You need to show it's a proportionate means of meeting a legitimate aim. You can't just decide to use the single sex exception because it would be nicer.

You don't think it would be considered a problem for a landlord to put up surveillance cameras in their tenants' homes?
Fucking hell
I know!!!
😟😳Wtf

How quick some will give away their personal freedoms not realising that it could be them one day, I mean let's be honest Ann and her bf sound like dicks but that's not illegal but what if Betsy was 'out to get' Ann/You wouldn't you like to have some security

@DifficultBloodyWoman

You are the landlord and you have a tenant who is requesting your help. Be a decent person and act on it quickly before you lose a good tenant.

1. Call a house meeting. It has come to your attention that there is one man routinely overstaying his welcome. This is against house rules. This may be upsetting to other tenants. This is causing an increase in bills which may be reflected in their rent. This is making the house non-compliant with HMO rules which may result in the council becoming involved and everyone being evicted. You would consider suing the tenant and guest if that were to happen

1. It is to stop now. Altering the house rules during a tenancy will not happen because a) you would have to increase the rent b) risk coercion of other tenants and c) still be non compliant with HMO rules.

1. Future landlord references will be based on what happens from now on. They can be glowing or confirm that someone was evicted/sued and explain why.

The above is is designed to get the other girls your side a d away from Ann. Peer pressure works. They won’t want to risk eviction or an increase in their rent because of Ann’s sex life.

If Ann objects, repeat her text messages to her (and all the others) - on (date) you said he wasn’t staying over, on (date) you said he was but not that often, on (date) you said you wanted to change the rules so he could stay over.

The outline above is harsh. But you have no reason to suck up to Ann. Why would you care if she thinks you are a bitch. You have her deposit if she causes any damage and also the courts if she causes more damage than her deposit. It is unlikely to come to that.

Also - for an HMO, I think you need to serve a section 8 notice. Because of COVID, there is a six month notice period however it is less for antisocial behaviour. This would fall within the scope of antisocial behaviour.

This plus notice to Ann

I think it's important to note that there is a big difference between whole-house tenancy and room with shared area tenancy. It is common to restrict overnight guests in room tenancy, but obviously not with whole-house tenancies.

I think the OP needs to be careful in what she allows here as it's a common problem for boyfriends to want to stay over and if she allows it for one, others will follow. I'd just keep reiterating what was agreed in the tenancy agreement and don't deviate from that.

Give Ann her notice immediately 6 months or not.

You need to start regular visits and tackle Ann, you need to support Betsy by being there and talking directly to the boyfriend.

Confront them both in person, often. Tell them tgat he has no right to be there, he is not patty if rent. It is breaching the tenancy agreement and ask Ann if she thinks it fair that other girls who have rented in an all girl house now have a man staying there. Tell her he must not use the communal facilities.

Evict her
Get a Soliciter , you are a business woman
Just do it

This is not a sarky question - I'm genuinely curious: How is it possible to forbid pets, and evict a tenant who gets (say) a cat, but not forbid an overnight "guest" (or indeed, a stream of overnight guests)?

OP - honestly - I don't know why you are so reluctant to serve an eviction notice on Ann.

The way things are going you are going to lose a tenant one way or the other - if you lose Best, you are left with the *rsey tenant who will be paying one person's share but having two people in the premises, will think now that she can always call the shots, and who may make it difficult to re-let Betsy's room.

Get rid of Ann - she's trouble.

*Besty, not Best, but it could be a Freudian autocorrect

@oil0W0lio

I don't understand how the landlord gets to set the house rules, when I've lived in rented houses I set my own rules about how life is conducted in there if the landlord came along and tried to tell me that I should be living differently I would think they had gone mad or thought they were my mum and dad

Have you lived in a houseshare? Rental of a whole property is different imo.

@boredbuttercup

Some people are really seriously confused about what rights a landlord has over the lives of their tenants!

This ^

@Lockheart seems to be the only person here with any comprehension. OP has no right to actually set house rules. She can try but none of it is legally enforceable. The tenants can set rules among themselves, as they have, but even this is a social nicety and if one of them breaks these rules it's up to the tenants to sort out between them. OP also has no right to just repeatedly show up, this would count as a nuisance and could possibly even cross into the territory or landlord harassment.

Whoever is morally right in this situation in your opinion doesn't really matter. All OP can do is give Ann notice and be more wary in future of trying to implement unenforceable rules and rennet selection. If OP goes about dealing with this illegally she'll only make more problems for herself and could open herself up to being reported.

Apologies, I'll hold my hands up as one who got it wrong - didn't think things through and was thinking more of a lodger scenario.

@SchadenfreudePersonified

This is not a sarky question - I'm genuinely curious: How is it possible to forbid pets, and evict a tenant who gets (say) a cat, but not forbid an overnight "guest" (or indeed, a stream of overnight guests)?

In both situations your only recourse as a LL is the same - to issue eviction proceedings, and wait as long as it takes.

No pets can be written into a tenancy contract (well, officially the legal wording is that tenants must ‘ask permission’ which LLs then routinely deny). LL couldn’t ban you from a visiting dog though. And anyway if it went to court the LL would probably lose and the tenant would get to keep the pet. No one challenges this usually.

No guests without the LLs permission could be written into a contract but it would be very unusual and most tenants would question it then get a red flag about the LL being controlling. Again if it ended up in court the LL would lose. It’s already written into contracts that you can’t sublet or move in another person without the LLs permission.

Either way it doesn’t matter. There’s no quick fix available, just giving tenant notice and it taking as long as it takes.