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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be more disappointed with misogynist women

118 replies

DeepThinkingGirl · 13/03/2021 02:12

Than misogynist men??

I find myself feeling intensely more disappointed with women who try dissociate themselves form women issues and dismiss them only so they can fit in their misogynist surrounding

Than I feel anger towards misogynist men.. for some reason I feel like I have very little hope in men doing the right thing if they’re toxic but to see women enabling them to reach higher ranks in society is really upsetting

It’s just that I expect a lot better from women when it comes to sisterhood and feeling some sort of compassion for each other or at least indifference.. but it takes special type of effort for a woman to treat another woman’s pain as invisible..

It just all seems spiteful and deliberate

OP posts:
RootyT00t · 13/03/2021 14:11

@DeepThinkingGirl

Than misogynist men??

I find myself feeling intensely more disappointed with women who try dissociate themselves form women issues and dismiss them only so they can fit in their misogynist surrounding

Than I feel anger towards misogynist men.. for some reason I feel like I have very little hope in men doing the right thing if they’re toxic but to see women enabling them to reach higher ranks in society is really upsetting

It’s just that I expect a lot better from women when it comes to sisterhood and feeling some sort of compassion for each other or at least indifference.. but it takes special type of effort for a woman to treat another woman’s pain as invisible..

It just all seems spiteful and deliberate

See, it's this patronising stance that gets me.

As if the only reason I identify with men at times is because I want to fit into the misognystic society.

That statement in itself is misognystic as if I couldn't possibly have a brain in my pretty little head for any other reason.

Jbon9087 · 13/03/2021 17:15

@phoenixrosehere

*All three I've totally cut ties with. They are like Meghan Markle with bells on. Only option is to bail.

(I am not manipulated into disliking MM - her lying to a group of disadvantaged women about her struggle to be educated was enough of a red flag for me) (add only the perpetuation of the little-Charlotte's-dress debacle and I was totally gone)*

You may not have been manipulated into disliking her, but you have never met her or actually know her so it says a lot to reference a person you’ve never met and then go on to defend it on a thread that it wasn’t necessary to mention her to begin with.

Thank you @phoenixrosehere

That post was a PERFECT example of how women claim to support victims of misogony while explicitly indicating that female victims they hate - like Megan - are not entitled to compassion and deserve their dehumanisation because of some deviance they're supposed to have committed cited as "evidence".

This justification for lack of support, compassion, and exclusion allows further dehumanisation of non conformist women by men, with active support from these women. Problem is - it focuses on the Meghan types etc - but its purpose is to keep us all in line.

Woman on woman irrational hatred demonstrates perfectly the intersection of racism and gender in the women's rights movement which is as old as the movement itself.

Women can't fight this alone, nor will they get all women to agree with the cause of women, so for women to better their condition they're going to have to teach their kids better, and find ways to unite with women from across all races and religion which starts with addressing this kind of attitude and yes these kinds of women.

Yes women /female misogonists are victim to patriarchy, but eventually it becomes a decision, are we going to keep sucking up crap or battle for something better for our sake, our daughters, and daughters daughters.

In Britain I have to say I am less and less optimistic. I feel like we're moving backwards in terms of women's consciousness.

SerendipityJAne · 13/03/2021 17:17

In Britain I have to say I am less and less optimistic. I feel like we're moving backwards in terms of women's consciousness.

Imagine seeing it over 40 years Sad

LolaSmiles · 13/03/2021 17:26

I've seen women on MN claiming that they and other women shouldn't feel bad about having an affair with a married man, because they aren't the ones who've made a vow, and thus they are free to do whatever will bring them pleasure, even if it's contributing to the destruction of a family with young children. Should we label this as misogyny or just really shitty, immoral, selfish behaviour? Will it make any difference what we call it?
I've seen similar threads and posts to you and have some sympathy with the view that it's his marriage vows and if the marriage ends then that's on him. Women are not responsible for men's behaviour and if a man has an affair then it's 100% because he decided to cheat and sleep with someone else. We have to be clear that breaking the marriage vows and any destruction to his family is absolutely on him, because too often there's poor wives who find out their husband has cheated and they come out with the argument that their husband is a nice guy, but the other woman was a temptress, she chased him, she got her claws into him etc. It reinforces the idea that poor married men couldn't help but fall into bed because the other woman trapped him.

That doesn't get the other woman off the hook though because a woman having an affair with a married man (where they know he is married) is being shitty and immoral.

They're not to blame for his marriage ending though. If a man wants to be faithful, he can. If he wants to cheat, that's his actions.

It's shitty and immoral behaviour but not misogyny because it's not coming from a place of keeping women in their place and perpetuating women's (as a class) oppression.

dotoallasyouwouldbedoneby · 13/03/2021 19:04

I am especially disappointed in female politicians happily throwing women's sex-based rights out of the window. I am grateful that not all male politicians have been as captured and that some are speaking out on our behalf though.

I don't care if they are only doing it as a 'vote winner', it should be a vote winner as women are at least 50% of the population.

TedMullins · 13/03/2021 19:46

Some people (as demonstrated on this thread) don’t know what words actually mean. Let’s take sisterhood: it doesn’t mean thinking all women can do no wrong, that you have to like every woman, or that crimes affecting men are less important. You’re free to think some other women are nasty, disagree with them and not want to associate with them. I was bullied at school much worse by girls than boys. If I saw one of those bullies had fallen over in the street, would I stop and help her? Hell no. Would I advocate for her right to exist free of the threat of rape, harassment and discrimination? Yes. Sisterhood means wanting all women - as a collective - to be freed from the power structure that puts men at the top. You don’t have to like every woman within that collective.

Okay, I hear the dissenters cry, men can also be raped and harassed! Yes, they can, and that’s terrible. There is a lack of support for male victims of sexual violence and if men want to campaign for that to change, I fully support them. But men have never lived in a world where it’s been legal for their wives to sexually assault them, where they couldn’t buy a house or have their own bank account without a woman’s approval, where they were banned from voting or wearing certain clothes, or where other men frequently say ‘but women can get raped too! Don’t talk about violence against men, you’ll hurt women’s feelings’. Women have never, in the history of the western world (I know other cultures do have a matriarchal system so I’m talking about western/patriarchal norms here) had that kind of power written into law for them. Even now, men are making laws in some countries denying women access to reproductive healthcare, legalising domestic abuse, and imprisoning women who’ve miscarried (some south/central American countries and Hungary, Poland and Russia I’m referring to here).

When have men ever been under that kind of threat, legitimised and promoted by the people who run the country? Never! That’s why the sexual assault of a man (statistically likely to be by another man) while dreadful, does not happen in the same context as a man raping a woman. The power men are told they have by society insidiously permeates every part of life, where a man who feels entitled to wolf-whistle is just the benign end of a continuum that logically concludes at rape and murder. There is no equivalence between crimes committed by men against women, and by men/women against men, because they don’t happen under the same power structure.

The sisterhood is about advocating for women to be free from that. If you deny that any of the above exists or still think there is an equivalence, whether you realise it or not, you are part of the problem.

SmokedDuck · 13/03/2021 19:55

I can see why you'd feel that way OP, however, I also think there can be a tendency to assume that your own definition of misogyny is water tight.

It is very likely that not all women agree with you about what is misogynistic. For example there are some women who think that different rules around maternity leave, or all women's shortlists, amount to an assumption that women can't make it on the same terms as men. I might disagree, but that doesn't mean they think that way because they hate women. Or, some women believe that all women should work and be financially independent of their spouses. I think that's kind of crap, but I would be quite wrong to assume they think that way due to some sort of internalised misogyny.

I also think that some people, both men and women, can be perceived as misogynists ( or sometimes racists or whatever) but really, they are just self-absorbed shits who don't respect anyone. They will find some characteristic of almost anyone to account for why that person is not as good as they themselves are. Such people naturally will be called a sexist or racists etc but hatred of that particular group is not really at the root of their thinking.

That is likely true of some of the women you are thinking of - they just don't like anyone who is inconveniencing them.

SmokedDuck · 13/03/2021 20:07

@thecatsthecats

One of the issues I have with feminism is that I feel excluded from it, particularly on MN. This is my experience:

Being stereotypically feminine is devalued by society. Feminists therefore assert their femininity and the equality of that to masculinity. So far so good.

But I am not stereotypically feminine. Not now, not ever. As a kid, I was one of those "not like other girls" girls, because I... Wasn't like other girls. (sue me, I was a teen being made to feel like shit by my own gender for not behaving like them) And as an adult, I get accused of being a "cool wife" or an MRA infiltrator. I am neither.

I'm an educated woman who has worked up to a position of influence. I've instituted policies in my workplace that make things fairer and easier for all parents to flex their work. I've promoted women in part time roles. I debate feminism with my friends, and my husband, who's read more feminist literature than I have.

In my humble opinion, if your version of feminism excludes me because I'm not the right type of woman for you, then you should call it something else, because last I checked, I am a woman.

Yeah, I kind of agree with this, and I think I am probably coming at it from a different direction than you are.

Feminism has probably been one of the worst groups for exclusing women - and the fact that they do it while claiming to be "by women for women" is a little enraging. But basically any woman who doesn't toe the line on what are considered to be feminist issues is ejected from the sisterhood. Are you a liberal capitalist women? Are you a woman who doesn't think the patriarchy is a thing? Are you a woman who thinks that rejecting the idea of sex work could impinge the idea of sexual consent? Do you believe that sperm donation is a bad idea, or gods forbid, do you think third trimester abortions are morally problematic? Do you vote Tory?

Any of these things could easily mean you are accused of internalised misogyny, called a handmaiden, and you surely aren't allowed into the discussion "by women for women."

HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee · 13/03/2021 20:12

attacking women for unconscious bias and perpetuating male privilege is not the way forward
Women have been socialised and immersed in culture and social systems that value and prioritise men
The issue is male privilege, male violence. How women have had to accommodate it in their lives

Thewithesarehere · 13/03/2021 20:25

@Kindperson

I know what you mean. I work in the middle east in a man's job and have few issues with men. But women can be pretty tough tk deal with. There are two categories I watch out for. The highly educated and high ranking Arabic women who can look down their noses at a western woman acting above her station. Then I also have to navigate through the 'ladies' as in women who literally think they are unable to lift a box, walk any distance, carry their handbag from the car, you get the gist. They generally don't even get given orders from their husband but always the father in law who they live with. One of my greatest joys was mentoring one of tmy team following the sad death of her father in law. She had gone from her childhood home to her in laws, her father handing her over to the in law and they were so cruel to her. They do my head in and I line manage a huge number but i have to remember that they are not allowed to fight.
This is my experience too. However, West has its own set of ‘ladies’. You only have to look at the current royal family and you will go Hmm. I wasn’t around when Queen was younger so can’t say for her but Neither Kate nor Camilla have set any great examples for young girls to follow. A large number of women still marry older men for financial security and the classist culture thrives on being inherently misogynist. People like Jacob Rees Mogg can still boast how they have never changed a nappy. Boris Johnson is not going to take even just the two weeks of paternity leave, becuase work Hmm. Someone needs to ask him why he went on holidays right when the county needed him. Covid is basically being manage by men who have been raised into a hugely mysogynistic system and who have mostly married women with similar mindsets. So no wonder Covid has set women back by such a big margin.

We still have such a long way to go and the change needs to happen at every level.

SmokedDuck · 13/03/2021 21:05

@thelegohooverer

I’m going to throw in here that I think one of the failures of feminism (or maybe not a failure as much as an area we haven’t tackled yet) is ignoring motherhood.

IMO the sisterhood is largely nonsense but the bonds between women and children are very powerful. Once you look at how culture and society disrupt those bonds you start to see how threatening that power is.

We live in a culture that promotes an ideal of romantic love to a ridiculous level. Romance, taken out of songs and off screens is often rapey, stalker is hand at best co dependent. It’s very hard to find solid examples of healthy partnership. Alongside this there’s a more subtle but quite insidious message that younger women should distrust older women. And that older women are irrelevant.

Feminism has always been deeply ambivalent about motherhood.
WhereverIlaymyhat2021 · 13/03/2021 22:36

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee · 13/03/2021 22:53

Well that’s an incoherent précis and an emoji. Added nothing to thread @WhereverIlaymyhat2021

WhereverIlaymyhat2021 · 13/03/2021 23:15

@HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee well you’ve illustrated my point haven’t you.

It’s just unpleasant, bitter women being unpleasant about and belittling women they don’t like under the guise of something else.

HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee · 14/03/2021 00:22

I see your post got deleted. That speaks volumes @WhereverIlaymyhat2021

user1471457751 · 14/03/2021 01:13

Do you not think your attitude is anti-women? You expect a higher standard of behaviour from women than from men. Why? Why are you letting men off the hook for poor behaviour?
I think you're the one with the misogynistic views. Behaviour is either bad or good, a person's genitals shouldn't come into it.

TaraRhu · 14/03/2021 08:57

I used to work in an office run by four female directors. It was by far the most misogynistic place I've ever worked. They gave no top up maternity and offered no flexibility. Staff were sidelined if they took up maternity/ paternity requirements. Even men who took two weeks of leave were bad mouthed by one director in particular that was also gay and you would think should know better than to bully.

This was 6 years ago not the 1980s. Those women sit on boards that represent women in our industry.... depression

Labobo · 14/03/2021 09:33

@TaraRhu - That's so interesting. I do wonder if some of the women who rise to the top manage to do so by being more masculine than the men - not rocking the status quo in any way, but endorsing it. I know a man who repeatedly failed to be offered partnership in a global corporation despite bringing in more clients and higher sales figures than anyone else in his department. When asked his view of the future of the company he would always say, 'Paternity leave, on-site creche.' He meant it. They didn't like it.

ConstantlySeekingHappiness · 14/03/2021 09:46

@TedMullins

Some people (as demonstrated on this thread) don’t know what words actually mean. Let’s take sisterhood: it doesn’t mean thinking all women can do no wrong, that you have to like every woman, or that crimes affecting men are less important. You’re free to think some other women are nasty, disagree with them and not want to associate with them. I was bullied at school much worse by girls than boys. If I saw one of those bullies had fallen over in the street, would I stop and help her? Hell no. Would I advocate for her right to exist free of the threat of rape, harassment and discrimination? Yes. Sisterhood means wanting all women - as a collective - to be freed from the power structure that puts men at the top. You don’t have to like every woman within that collective.

Okay, I hear the dissenters cry, men can also be raped and harassed! Yes, they can, and that’s terrible. There is a lack of support for male victims of sexual violence and if men want to campaign for that to change, I fully support them. But men have never lived in a world where it’s been legal for their wives to sexually assault them, where they couldn’t buy a house or have their own bank account without a woman’s approval, where they were banned from voting or wearing certain clothes, or where other men frequently say ‘but women can get raped too! Don’t talk about violence against men, you’ll hurt women’s feelings’. Women have never, in the history of the western world (I know other cultures do have a matriarchal system so I’m talking about western/patriarchal norms here) had that kind of power written into law for them. Even now, men are making laws in some countries denying women access to reproductive healthcare, legalising domestic abuse, and imprisoning women who’ve miscarried (some south/central American countries and Hungary, Poland and Russia I’m referring to here).

When have men ever been under that kind of threat, legitimised and promoted by the people who run the country? Never! That’s why the sexual assault of a man (statistically likely to be by another man) while dreadful, does not happen in the same context as a man raping a woman. The power men are told they have by society insidiously permeates every part of life, where a man who feels entitled to wolf-whistle is just the benign end of a continuum that logically concludes at rape and murder. There is no equivalence between crimes committed by men against women, and by men/women against men, because they don’t happen under the same power structure.

The sisterhood is about advocating for women to be free from that. If you deny that any of the above exists or still think there is an equivalence, whether you realise it or not, you are part of the problem.

🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
LolaSmiles · 14/03/2021 10:42

That's so interesting. I do wonder if some of the women who rise to the top manage to do so by being more masculine than the men - not rocking the status quo in any way, but endorsing it. I know a man who repeatedly failed to be offered partnership in a global corporation despite bringing in more clients and higher sales figures than anyone else in his department. When asked his view of the future of the company he would always say, 'Paternity leave, on-site creche.' He meant it. They didn't like it.
I can well believe it.
I've worked with some women who felt that because they were ok at falling in line, following the same path and behaviours as successful men in the organisation that there wasn't a problem with equality. They were also bad at pulling the ladder up behind them for anyone who didn't want to be a cookie cutter career chaser.

In other organisations I've known with men who have shared parental leave, women who job share in management roles, people have taken secondment for family reasons, flexible hours to share pickups and wraparound care, and what's staggering is that in those organisations there is a commitment from the men at the top to make things more equal for all. They realise that the best way to get equality is to normalise men and women having greater flexibility for all.

twelly · 14/03/2021 10:47

Misogynistic is the hatred/contempt/preducce of women - I think using this label is not accurate. I don't agree with lots of women or men but that doesn't make me misogynistic. This use of labels is used to silence people.

LemonTT · 14/03/2021 10:51

I did vote YABU as I do think men do more harm. However there are women you indulge and enable societal advantage in ways that accumulatively are harmful.

The simple things that women accept on here like how they enable a husbands career. I mean you know working women have no equivalent that means they can work 12 hours a day. I am glad this work ethic is waning but not quickly enough. But would be eternally grateful if those that do this would just stop enabling men’s careers.

LolaSmiles · 14/03/2021 10:52

I don't agree with lots of women or men but that doesn't make me misogynistic'
Has anyone said that disagreeing with a woman is misogyny?
It's possible to disagree with a woman without being misogynistic. That's where most day to day debates fall.

LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 14/03/2021 11:01

@ Jbon9087

What, and where is a woman’s power? I could really hear with someone clearly articulating this in ones I could hold onto and can’t find in myself at the moment. x

LadyfromtheBelleEpoque · 14/03/2021 11:02

Words, not ones

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