To be more disappointed with misogynist women

[DeepThinkingGirl]

Than misogynist men??

I find myself feeling intensely more disappointed with women who try dissociate themselves form women issues and dismiss them only so they can fit in their misogynist surrounding

Than I feel anger towards misogynist men.. for some reason I feel like I have very little hope in men doing the right thing if they’re toxic but to see women enabling them to reach higher ranks in society is really upsetting

It’s just that I expect a lot better from women when it comes to sisterhood and feeling some sort of compassion for each other or at least indifference.. but it takes special type of effort for a woman to treat another woman’s pain as invisible..

It just all seems spiteful and deliberate

Jane Claire Jones said that women have the lowest level of class consciousness of any group and I think she's right

As a child I was constantly fed the narrative that girls competed with each other for male attention, that girls were catty, that their “bitchiness” was much more damaging than the good honest fist fight practiced by boys.

The “I’m not like other girls” was my very natural reaction to that.

But then I found feminism

You may not have been manipulated into disliking her, but you have never met her or actually know her so it says a lot to reference a person you’ve never met and then go on to defend it on a thread that it wasn’t necessary to mention her to begin with
You mean like all the posters here accusing other posters of bring racist (or whatever else) without having met them and knowing even less about them then a public figure...

YABVU. I am sick of women being vilified for things that men do, for having attitudes that men share. It supports the mentality 'They can't help it, they are just men. Women should be better.'

Imo that is a deeply entrenched misogynist attitude.

You mean like all the posters here accusing other posters of bring racist (or whatever else) without having met them and knowing even less about them then a public figure...

Yes and that too, where did I say that was right. Some people constantly moan about MM but even when there is no reason to bring her up, they find a way. I don’t mind her nor do I hate her. She has no bearing whatsoever in my life or anyone else’s. She’s not even a politician so why even bring her up unnecessarily?

I hate women who stand up for their partners who are clearly treating their exes and children terribly. You can spot them a mile off when their a lone voice on a thread of people telling the OP what to do regarding an ex and you can hear what the idiot has been doing. Yet the deluded idiot has convinced herself that it’ll never happen to her. Yes dear, of course it won’t

*they’re
Damn autocorrect

@DrSbaitso

They're trying to escape misogyny by getting behind it so it won't be directed at them. It doesn't work long term but I can see why they're trying it.

It's obnoxious but I can understand it. I don't hold them to a higher standard. They're starting from a disadvantage.

This. I know very well that the privilege I have now comes from those that came before me, but I find modern feminism divisive and derogatory to men. How is that equality?

Fair fucks to you if ‘sisterhood’ is important to you and something you find value in, but it’s not for me I’m afraid. Pulling down other women for not wanting to be part of that just seems odd.

I couldn’t agree more. I have had several women in my profession put me down time and time again (men did it too of course). I later realised one was just threatened by me and constantly wanted to every other woman in the office to look like they were doing such a shit job compared to her. Thankfully, it backfired on her. I’ve still managed to climb the ranks with my hard work alone despite them and am now running my own team. I must say I’ve also met my fair share of truly inspiring woman who have encouraged to succeed.

Also, look at the story of Shanann Cathryn Watts. The amount of women that said she made her husband kill her and her daughters is absolutely disgusting. Because she stood up for herself in her marriage and didn’t just do what her husband said and be the perfect ‘housewife’, she deserves it. Also, the case of Cheryl Araujo and all the women that were against her.

*Thanks for that post, it raises some very interesting points and it’s certainly given me food for thought on my stance on female MRA’s. It is, as Parker says, very difficult to find empathy or sympathy when these women are so aggressive in their hatred for other women. I suppose we want to hold women to a higher standard in that regard. The damage a female MRA publishing a paper (some are academics) as opposed to a man can’t be underestimated because of the legitimacy it gives their cause. Their work faces little back lash or is scrutinised to the level feminist academics work is.

Another poster the other day made a good point about male issues being raised online. Never ever, do we find a barrage of men saying, “what about women, they suffer from this too”. But women fall over themselves to centre men even though they are so good at doing it themselves.

You are right, logically we need to stop blaming women for this internalised mysoginy but it’s incredibly difficult because it feels like wading through treacle.*

Well said

Womens rights started going backwards under Mrs. Thatcher, really. She made damn sure no one would ever do as well as she did.

And writ large, that's the problem.

Forcing group think onto another person and judging their actions by it can be just as oppressive as the bigotry you're trying to address.

I know, it is frustrating but I think it's been shown that women who don't have the resources, strength, influence (however these are defined) will align with the patriarchy as a form of survival. Mostly unconscious.

But the study I read about was done on columbian women where issues of survival are probably more self-eroding than in Europe.

some women just don't have the empathy. Their life is ok, it all fell in to place for them, so what's the problem. I know a couple of very intelligent women who view things like this. Everything worked out for me so therefore it is possible so there, the end. Even though they had two financially secure united parents supporting them every step of the way.

@Sweet666

YABU. Misogynistic men do far worse.

How do they do worse? They get exactly what they want.

Being stereotypically feminine is devalued by society. Feminists therefore assert their femininity and the equality of that to masculinity. So far so good. But I am not stereotypically feminine.

Curious what you mean by this? When I think "feminist" the image of a very "feminine" woman rarely comes to mind - quite the opposite in fact! The "traditional" idea of what feminists looks like is actually something used to ridicule them isn't it? Deriding them as a bunch of ugly/butch/lesbians who are only feminists as no man would want them

I find it curious just that you feel excluded from it on the basis of not being "feminine".

@thecatsthecats

One of the issues I have with feminism is that I feel excluded from it, particularly on MN. This is my experience:

Being stereotypically feminine is devalued by society. Feminists therefore assert their femininity and the equality of that to masculinity. So far so good.

But I am not stereotypically feminine. Not now, not ever. As a kid, I was one of those "not like other girls" girls, because I... Wasn't like other girls. (sue me, I was a teen being made to feel like shit by my own gender for not behaving like them) And as an adult, I get accused of being a "cool wife" or an MRA infiltrator. I am neither.

I'm an educated woman who has worked up to a position of influence. I've instituted policies in my workplace that make things fairer and easier for all parents to flex their work. I've promoted women in part time roles. I debate feminism with my friends, and my husband, who's read more feminist literature than I have.

In my humble opinion, if your version of feminism excludes me because I'm not the right type of woman for you, then you should call it something else, because last I checked, I am a woman.

What is it about the OP’s post that is suggesting you would be excluded?

I think that poster meant "they do far worse damage" not "they're far worse off"

That was to Number3BigCupOfTea btw

Anyone using the term "sisterhood' tends to ring massive alarm bells for me. It's never about women right, it's about THEIR vision of what is acceptable or not in their agenda.

This. And I said something similar on a very similar thread the other day. “Sisterhood” is normally used as a put down by women to shut other women up, which kind of just contradicts everything they apparently stand for. It gets my alarm bells going too.

I’m not misogynistic for thinking some women are quite frankly, dickheads. Otherwise this website is very misogynistic because everyone is always at everyone’s bloody throats.

My sister falls into the category you mention OP. She's always "gotten on better" with men and will almost always align herself with men over women. It's very frustrating but I can't blame her more than a man as men are the reason she acts this way. I suspect one man in particular is at the root of it - our shitty father, so it's literal patriarchy in action.

Brilliant post bygrab you've expressed what I could not.

A thoughtful point for you all: I've always been gregarious, extroverted (I come from large, loud and happy family with many strong, funny, clever women) and as such love people and chat. I have brilliant friends of both sexes, but my closest friendships are with women. So far so good. In my work environment I have made great friendships over 26 years, with men and women, but crucially it is here that I have met quite a few women who are passive aggressive and hostile. No men have been like this. There have been men I'm not close to/ aren't my kind of people, but noone openly hostile. There have been quite a few women who have been/ are

Now, we all know we're not everyone's cup of tea, but why are women the ones who are hostile or PA and only to other women? It's not just me who has experienced this in my workplace either, there are other women too. For context it's a large workplace with a 50/50 split of the sexes.

Anyone have a theory/ shed any light?

but I think it's been shown that women who don't have the resources, strength, influence (however these are defined) will align with the patriarchy as a form of survival. Mostly unconscious.

I do love how women are ALWAYS put down by a certain type of posters when these women do not fit the "mould".

Lucky us, we're stuck between the patriarchy and these women (usually self-labelling themselves feminists). Don't tell me women are weak when we constantly have to fight both these extremists idiots.
Thankfully the majority of PEOPLE is decent.

@Jbon9087

Just too many women are out for themselves. They truly believe they got the nice jobs, clothes, and relative independence solely on their own merit, refusing to acknowledge the shoulders on which they've been carried.

The young ones seem not to know history - that until fairly recently mortgage companies refused to lend women, police laughed in the face of rape victims, and that birth control they take for granted was fought for.

Women are still trained, and are training their daughters, to see every other woman as (sexual) competition which means they cannot stand united.

Generally - Women still don't know what men have always known which is our power.. so we keep handing it to men for less than nothing, and then punishing other women for it.

I encountered a young muslim woman on a fitness forum (relationship section), very opinionated and outspoken; who declared she is an anti feminist.. and backed up anti feminist men.

When I found out she worked full-time in a profession and had several buy to.let properties, I asked her how she thought she'd have gotten the ability to get educated in a uni, get a professional job and own property without feminism. Don't think she ever answeted that.

She also spouted the traditional roles dogma and said her husband would be the head of the household when she married etc.

Not sure if I pointed out that that might be all very well unless her husband turned out to be a cheater, as many do, who she probably wouldn't even be able to divorce without him handily taking half of her rental propeety portfolio value etc.

@Sunhoop

Being stereotypically feminine is devalued by society. Feminists therefore assert their femininity and the equality of that to masculinity. So far so good. But I am not stereotypically feminine.

Curious what you mean by this? When I think "feminist" the image of a very "feminine" woman rarely comes to mind - quite the opposite in fact! The "traditional" idea of what feminists looks like is actually something used to ridicule them isn't it? Deriding them as a bunch of ugly/butch/lesbians who are only feminists as no man would want them

I find it curious just that you feel excluded from it on the basis of not being "feminine".

By this I mean things like hair, make up, grooming, enjoying shopping, wearing dresses etc. Then also more seriously female professions and care roles being paid less than male ones. And in literature (my particular area of interest), "ballsy" (a sexually pejorative term for starters) female characters being valued over gentler ones. There's a lot of interesting analysis of the reception of Arya vs Sansa in GoT as an example of feminine characters being devalued whilst boyish ones are praised (see also Susan vs Lucy in Narnia).

I don't like these things much myself and don't bother with them, but there's a lot of cultural devaluing of these things as frivolous and unimportant because they're "wimmins things", or that feminity is inherently separate and weaker than masculinity.

Obviously this is wrong, and I agree with it being challenged (in my own written works, I've worked hard at a range of female characters).

Further, my experience (to an extent) is that some feminists take it further by asserting that women who DON'T appear to be fitting in with that mode of femininity are either wrong to be different, or are men posing as women. This is my issue with some of the debate online, of a particular vein of feminism that shuts down feminist debate.

(ironically, I think this goes further towards an old theory of gender that believed women MUST be one way, and men MUST be another, which is less old than you think, but this post is already getting long, so here's a link www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-11-04-bk-5243-story.html%3f_amp=true)

I'm not sure if you expect me to do a thread trawl for when I've experienced this, but I hope you don't think I'm lying or blaming women.

• The female MRA’s or self styled ‘honey badgers’ are truly awful. I stumbled across one trolling Refuge, demanding they stop the ‘lie’ that women are more at risk of domestic violence than men and using the few studies (undertaken by other MRA’s and amounting to nothing more than questionnaire’s) that make the claim men are the real victims of domestic violence. These women are all over YouTube & Twitter playing the ‘pick me’ game with the male MRA’s as they argue for rape laws to be redacted, domestic violence shelters for women to be defunded and offered to men instead and offer unwavering support to hate groups who’s very mission statement involves asking women and girls to stay out of public and political life.*

It’s like people of colour signing up for EDL. I don’t understand it. They legitimise hate groups. It’s bizarre.

This is exactly what I had to deal with yesterday. A man cheating her misogynist husband that women are using abuse to take away men’s rights and totally minimising the fact many women are subject to abuse by men in relationships and instead pointing the anger towards women who are the victims of abuse!!

I tried to explain nicely that this isn’t a representative way, her husband is a high profile and is goading lots of men who have been shown by courts to be abusive...

I’m angry at her selfish husband, but to then be a woman and deny what you see around you of what other women clearly experience, it takes more than selfishness to do that.

I’m not blaming the “women” as other pp mentioned , I’m blaming the enabler women who are clearly enabling the propagation of abuse.