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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be more disappointed with misogynist women

118 replies

DeepThinkingGirl · 13/03/2021 02:12

Than misogynist men??

I find myself feeling intensely more disappointed with women who try dissociate themselves form women issues and dismiss them only so they can fit in their misogynist surrounding

Than I feel anger towards misogynist men.. for some reason I feel like I have very little hope in men doing the right thing if they’re toxic but to see women enabling them to reach higher ranks in society is really upsetting

It’s just that I expect a lot better from women when it comes to sisterhood and feeling some sort of compassion for each other or at least indifference.. but it takes special type of effort for a woman to treat another woman’s pain as invisible..

It just all seems spiteful and deliberate

OP posts:
DdraigGoch · 13/03/2021 09:40

@debbiegotthejobandwelldone

Define "misogynist women*

It sounds like what you actually mean is "women who do not think and speak exactly as you tell them to". I don't believe in sisterhood. I don't believe that women are one big entity or one mind because they happen to have a vagina.

Too many self-proclaimed members of the "sisterhood" are trying to impose themselves and have no respect for the individuality or personality of others.

It's laughable that someone preaching for safety and equal rights of one gender is trying to deny them exactly that.

An example I would give of a "misogynistic woman" is how they treat a victim of rape. Plenty of women come up with the "she was asking for it" line or variations thereof.
debbiegotthejobandwelldone · 13/03/2021 09:42

An example I would give of a "misogynistic woman" is how they treat a victim of rape. Plenty of women come up with the "she was asking for it" line or variations thereof.

I completely agree with you it is a perfect example.

I am not sure the expression "misogynistic woman" is used as accurately all the times.

woollysheeps · 13/03/2021 09:47

@dontdisturbmenow

It’s just that I expect a lot better from women when it comes to sisterhood I don't believe in sisterhood. I don't look at people and see them for their gender before anything else. I don't assume all women are from Venus and all men are from Mars.

I dislike people who stereotype. I like to judge individual people for who they are as a person. I was raise by two parents who are probably both 50/50 on the female/make traits.

This whole sisterhood thing, women can do no wrong, males are all horrible unless they act exactly as we want them to quite unpleasant.

We are all entitled to our views, neither make us a better person than the other. Tolerance starts at home.

👌
woollysheeps · 13/03/2021 09:50

@debbiegotthejobandwelldone

Define "misogynist women*

It sounds like what you actually mean is "women who do not think and speak exactly as you tell them to". I don't believe in sisterhood. I don't believe that women are one big entity or one mind because they happen to have a vagina.

Too many self-proclaimed members of the "sisterhood" are trying to impose themselves and have no respect for the individuality or personality of others.

It's laughable that someone preaching for safety and equal rights of one gender is trying to deny them exactly that.

Smile
Gingangoolee · 13/03/2021 09:50

Kindperson please be wary of judging the Ladies you refer to for not lifting boxes etc. I look outwardly fit and healthy but don’t lift anything other than very light things because of a gynae issue (prolapse) and trying to avoid another operation. I would never actually say that though I’d prob just decline to lift a box. It’s a common health problem for women who’ve had children. Remember not all health issue/disabilities are visible and it’s potentially not very feminist to lack sympathy and understanding for possible unseen female health issues.

DeepThinkingGirl · 13/03/2021 10:02

I’m not using the label “misogynist” women sparingly here.

A woman who is feminine isn’t misogynist. A women who chooses to be subservient to her husband in her personal life isn’t misogynist. A woman who choose to critique feminism isn’t misogynist to me.

A woman can believe what she wants in her personal life but what she propagates in society and preaches for.. that affects me and other women. So I’m entitled to judge her for it.

Imight’ve misused the word sisterhood here but what I meant is there is an element of struggle and suffering that we do share.. such as the risk of rape, the risk of domestic violance... risks that affect our human rights but make us more vulnerable Because of our nature and biology..

But a woman who would outright support an attitude of blaming victims of abuse, diminish their suffering, re enforce the attitude of abusive men that yes they asked for it, or that “they have been brainwashed by feminism”, assign blame to them and sympathy to the abusers etc.... totally diminishing the fact that there is a half of society who does have elements of suffering because acknowledging that would mean acknowledging that in some aspects men are the perpetrators...

Those women are misogynists.

A woman who would state “poor men are falling victim of women asking for their rights”...

These women are dangerous in my view. And I struggle to have any sympathy for them when they clearly reserve no sympathy for others

OP posts:
LexMitior · 13/03/2021 10:07

@DeepThinkingGirl

I’m not using the label “misogynist” women sparingly here.

A woman who is feminine isn’t misogynist. A women who chooses to be subservient to her husband in her personal life isn’t misogynist. A woman who choose to critique feminism isn’t misogynist to me.

A woman can believe what she wants in her personal life but what she propagates in society and preaches for.. that affects me and other women. So I’m entitled to judge her for it.

Imight’ve misused the word sisterhood here but what I meant is there is an element of struggle and suffering that we do share.. such as the risk of rape, the risk of domestic violance... risks that affect our human rights but make us more vulnerable Because of our nature and biology..

But a woman who would outright support an attitude of blaming victims of abuse, diminish their suffering, re enforce the attitude of abusive men that yes they asked for it, or that “they have been brainwashed by feminism”, assign blame to them and sympathy to the abusers etc.... totally diminishing the fact that there is a half of society who does have elements of suffering because acknowledging that would mean acknowledging that in some aspects men are the perpetrators...

Those women are misogynists.

A woman who would state “poor men are falling victim of women asking for their rights”...

These women are dangerous in my view. And I struggle to have any sympathy for them when they clearly reserve no sympathy for others

applauds
emilyfrost · 13/03/2021 10:09

@dontdisturbmenow

It’s just that I expect a lot better from women when it comes to sisterhood I don't believe in sisterhood. I don't look at people and see them for their gender before anything else. I don't assume all women are from Venus and all men are from Mars.

I dislike people who stereotype. I like to judge individual people for who they are as a person. I was raise by two parents who are probably both 50/50 on the female/make traits.

This whole sisterhood thing, women can do no wrong, males are all horrible unless they act exactly as we want them to quite unpleasant.

We are all entitled to our views, neither make us a better person than the other. Tolerance starts at home.

I completely agree with this.

The sisterhood is a load of bollocks. You shouldn’t support people just because they’re woman. Women can lie and cheat and behave awfully too.

You should support people who are kind, reliable, trustworthy good people not because of their sex but because they’re a good person.

DeepThinkingGirl · 13/03/2021 12:01

Sisterhood doesn’t mean I stick up for every woman being innocent...

Sisterhood to me means that just like my sister, I would hear her out and acknowledge her existence and that even if she is a lying cheat she doesn’t deserve to be raped or abused and so i will stand up against rape and abuse for the sake of even the lying cheat Hmm

Funny story, once I had a falling out with my mother in law who was slandering me for my life choices.

A woman who was meant to be my relative wanted to strike a friendship with my husband so went and secretly told him that if she was him she would divorce me as I am not respecting his mother or subservient to her wishes and he is the man and I should honour that his mother comes first.

This is coming from a woman that was meant to be close to me..

Luckily I have a decent husband who came and told me straight away and told me to cut her off..

Now imagine my husband was on the border of logic and got swayed by that.

Sisterhood doesn’t mean I think all women are right. Sisterhood means I acknowledge that someone needs to defend women against crimes and injustice that are specifically targeted at women.

Damn I’m very new to reading on feminism and I don’t think I call myself one because I prefer no labels that would confine to a certain agenda.

But it’s hard not to appreciate that feminism is trying to acknowledge women’s rights in departments where they’re disadvantaged by men and that’s a shared issue amongst all women.

I don’t care about labelling it sisterhood but it takes a special type of nastiness to want to cause hardship and pain to other women just to get a better competitive advantage yourself

OP posts:
TheVanguardSix · 13/03/2021 12:05

I hear you, OP. I rage inside over this. You'll see me raging away on porn threads here on MN. I'm usually the thread killer on those (or I get burnt at the stake by other 'woke' women). I abhor it when women defend and normalise the actions of misogynists. The world is awash in misogynistic enablers... and these are the women teaching our daughters. I despair.

emilyfrost · 13/03/2021 12:15

Sisterhood to me means that just like my sister, I would hear her out and acknowledge her existence and that even if she is a lying cheat she doesn’t deserve to be raped or abused and so i will stand up against rape and abuse for the sake of even the lying cheat

Again, sisterhood is a load of bollocks.

You should hear our and acknowledge everyone’s existence. Nobody deserves to be raped or abused regardless of their sex. You should stand up for abuse against everyone, not just women simply because they’re women.

DeepThinkingGirl · 13/03/2021 12:18

emilyfrost

I’m not denying that..

But are you denying that women need special attention for being MORE vulnerable to these issues ?! Are you going to tell me your brother walks at night worried a woman is going to rape him in the same way a woman does !!

I’m not saying anyone’s issues are superior but I’m saying they’re unique to us.. can you not see that?!

OP posts:
MirandaWestsNewBFF · 13/03/2021 12:22

Misogyny from women is really saddening.

Being the master’s favourite dog is still having a master and being a dog.

DeepThinkingGirl · 13/03/2021 12:48

Being the master’s favourite dog is still having a master and being a dog.

And no only would you not be hailed and loved by the type of men who don’t know what love really means besides possession and control, you will lose yourself the opportunity to be loved by women and men who genuinely have the ability to connect purely based on humanity and kindness..

Being consumed by competitiveness might make someone succeed materially but genuinely would deprive them the basics needed to feel fulfilled.

So what’s the point !

OP posts:
DeepThinkingGirl · 13/03/2021 12:51

And not only would you be hailed and loved by the type of men who don’t know what love really means besides possession and control,...

Sorry angry typing !

OP posts:
debbiegotthejobandwelldone · 13/03/2021 12:52

Sisterhood to me means that just like my sister, I would hear her out and acknowledge her existence and that even if she is a lying cheat she doesn’t deserve to be raped or abused and so i will stand up against rape and abuse for the sake of even the lying cheat

sorry but that's just being a decent human being.
I would stand up against rape and abuse of a man too. That has nothing to do with the sisterhood.

Or maybe if you think male rape is so rare it doesn't matter, against torture, abuse in general.

debbiegotthejobandwelldone · 13/03/2021 12:53

@MirandaWestsNewBFF

Misogyny from women is really saddening.

Being the master’s favourite dog is still having a master and being a dog.

lucky us, we have neither masters nor are treated or considering like dogs in this country.

And it should be the same worldwide.

UrsulaBee · 13/03/2021 12:56

I hate them too.

But, by disliking them more then men, you are holding women to higher standards then men, which isn’t great either

motherrunner · 13/03/2021 12:58

@ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings

Women are groomed from birth to comply with and support male dominance. Part of this includes pitting us against each other and encouraging us to compete with each other to win the game of patriarchy rather than dismantling it.

Women with internalised misogyny are simply a product of this environment, so I can't feel more upset and angry with them than I do with men. That attitude is part of the same problem, same as when women blame the OW more than the adulterous man.

If women naturally had, or were at least raised to have, a sense of "sisterhood" then we'd be much further forwards. Is it any wonder then that we're discouraged from this and taught instead that other women are bitchy, mean, manipulative, and two faced? We're taught that "you're not like other girls" is a compliment and that "I just prefer being friends with boys" is a virtue. We're taught that heterosexual romantic love is more important than our female friendships and our family, whilst female homosexual romantic love is erased and forbidden by both traditionalists ("its against my religious beliefs, its just a phase") and progressives ("it's against my gender identity beliefs, its just a preference"). It's the reason that young women are taught to dispise old women; that abusers focus first on alienating their victims from their female friends and mothers; and that women meeting or speaking in large groups has always been treated as dangerous. It's the reason why men are desperate to change and remove the language we need to empathise and identify with each other - whether that's TRAs seperating us into groups based on our body parts (cervix havers, menstruators, pregnant bodies) as if these groups have nothing in common with each other; anti choice activists referring to pregnant women as "hosts" or simply erasing the existence of a pregnant women from their rhetoric entirely (the often used image of a fetus in a disconnected floating womb); or surrogacy campaigners using language like "surrogate" and "carrier" to erase the women involved, and the media reporting celebrity children born to through surrogacy as if the woman in question had never existed.

We are taught to erase each other in our view of the world and to frame every narrative a the way which centers men and their feelings and agency whilst dismissing our own and other women's needs as selfish, hysterical, and manipulative.

Women who harm other women through internalised misogyny are also victims of misogyny. When she gave evidence to the Woman's Equality Party recently, Jane Claire Jones said that women have the lowest level of class consciousness of any group and I think she's right, but I don't think it's an accident. Women hating women isn't just a by product of patriarchy, is an essential part of its foundations. It's also the one we might have the best chance of destabilising, but not if we become part of the problem by focusing our anger and disappointment on each other.

This post has blown me away. @ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings.
LolaSmiles · 13/03/2021 13:05

But I am not stereotypically feminine. Not now, not ever. As a kid, I was one of those "not like other girls" girls, because I... Wasn't like other girls. (sue me, I was a teen being made to feel like shit by my own gender for not behaving like them) And as an adult, I get accused of being a "cool wife" or an MRA infiltrator. I am neither.
That's good for you, but my issue is that even here you're drawing a distinction between you and 'other girls/women' as if 'other' girls or women are one homogenous group wife fluffy feminine goodness.

Women come in all shapes and sizes. Women have a range of interests. Women have a range of ambitions and hopes and goals. Women have different boundaries in their relationships. Women want different things from relationships.

What we have in common is our biology, which is the root of our oppression on a small level and a societal level. No amount of makeup, or trainers, or 'manly' job, changes that.

As a woman my spidey senses go on edge the second I hear another woman talk about how they're "not like the other women" because 9 times out of 10 it means that they:

  • spend a huge amount of time and effort propping up the patriarchy
  • spend a huge amount of time minimising other women's struggles because 'I'm alright / I just worked hard / I got promoted and nobody discriminated against me... etc'
thelegohooverer · 13/03/2021 13:36

I’m going to throw in here that I think one of the failures of feminism (or maybe not a failure as much as an area we haven’t tackled yet) is ignoring motherhood.

IMO the sisterhood is largely nonsense but the bonds between women and children are very powerful. Once you look at how culture and society disrupt those bonds you start to see how threatening that power is.

We live in a culture that promotes an ideal of romantic love to a ridiculous level. Romance, taken out of songs and off screens is often rapey, stalker is hand at best co dependent. It’s very hard to find solid examples of healthy partnership. Alongside this there’s a more subtle but quite insidious message that younger women should distrust older women. And that older women are irrelevant.

SerendipityJane · 13/03/2021 13:47

IMO the sisterhood is largely nonsense but the bonds between women and children are very powerful. Once you look at how culture and society disrupt those bonds you start to see how threatening that power is.

We've only just emerged from a time when sons were deliberately taken from their mothers to be educated and taught how to be men. Or maybe I should say we are still emerging, as there is still a strong movement to return to those days. Why was Princess Diana so vilified by the usually easy going and progressive British Monarchy ? Nothing to do with her distinctly unpatriarchal notions of motherhood.

Shnuffles · 13/03/2021 13:56

Often when I see someone complaining about a woman's internalised misogyny, I don't agree that she had any. I am probably more inclined to sympathise with a random woman than a random man, but I don't feel any mystical Sisterhood, and I've been treated as poorly by girls/women as I ever have by boys/men. I don't owe random women more than I owe random men.

debbiegotthejobandwelldone · 13/03/2021 13:57

Why was Princess Diana so vilified by the usually easy going and progressive British Monarchy ?

the what now!? 😂

Shnuffles · 13/03/2021 14:10

Women who undermine other women (simply on the basis that they are other women) in an effort to get ahead are of course awful. But tbh undermining, nasty behaviour is awful whatever the reason or whoever is doing it, man or woman.

I've seen women on MN claiming that they and other women shouldn't feel bad about having an affair with a married man, because they aren't the ones who've made a vow, and thus they are free to do whatever will bring them pleasure, even if it's contributing to the destruction of a family with young children. Should we label this as misogyny or just really shitty, immoral, selfish behaviour? Will it make any difference what we call it?

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