Police advising women not to walk alone at night

[Bubbinsmakesthree]

I’ve seen a lot of friends outraged at the Met police locally advising women not to walk alone at night in the days following the disappearance of Sarah Everard. I’ve seen a posts along the lines of ‘how about telling men not to attack women instead?’

I absolutely agree with the wider point that we should be asking the question “how do we make it safe for women?” not “how do women stay out of danger?”

But in this case, was the police’s advice not just the equivalent of advising people to stay out of the water following a shark attack?

I’m so upset and angry about Sarah Everard but I cannot get incensed about the police advising women to take precautions when an unknown attacker may have still been in the area.

No-one has told women not to go out either. Or at least if they have, not a single news media site is reporting it that I've found. The source for this OP is a mystery

Anecdotally I have heard police were advising this when carrying out door to door enquiries around the area Sarah was last seen, prior to a suspect being arrested. I live in the general area and have friends in the immediate area.

I don’t know how much it was actually said but it seems to have sparked a lot of outrage.

:The thing is....you can't do a thing to make men 'behave'.

You can- well society can.

The levels of VAWG vary a lot between different countries around the world. Yes it's under-reported etc etc but I don't think anyone would argue that the situation for women is the same everywhere.

Men and women are the same everywhere. Differences in behaviour are to do with different attitudes by the authorities and in society.

Of course some men will still do it. But the fact it varies so much around the world shows that it can be changed.

Engaging with the thought experiment of a curfew for men:

It would cause inconvenience to powerful male people. Imagine how it might affect the decisions of a judge for instance if he had to sit indoors twiddling his thumbs once in a while because a rapist was on the loose.

Would our predominantly male law makers vote differently if they found themselves having to stop in?

Would low level harassment be taken more seriously if it meant less chance of scumbags escalating to serious curfew triggering crimes.

If predominantly male industries, like the crews that work at night on motorways, had to halt govt sponsored work in these circumstances, I think that would focus the mind a bit too. Industry captains who might not care about an individual woman might care much more passionately about economic disruption.

@Bubbinsmakesthree

No-one has told women not to go out either. Or at least if they have, not a single news media site is reporting it that I've found. The source for this OP is a mystery

Anecdotally I have heard police were advising this when carrying out door to door enquiries around the area Sarah was last seen, prior to a suspect being arrested. I live in the general area and have friends in the immediate area.

I don’t know how much it was actually said but it seems to have sparked a lot of outrage.

So this was to women in that exact area, when the guy could have been said to be at large? When they didn't know who he was and that she was dead?

That's very different (assuming it WAS said) to telling women they shouldn't go out alone at night, in any area, at this point, when the guy has been found.

But you can make men behave. Women are conditioned to behave from childhood. Boys are conditioned to be 'boisterous ' and ' boys will be boys'. Boys learn to behave from those around them. We need to change the whole culture. My ds is growing up watching his dad respect women. Dh even changed the language he uses when dd was born: no more big girls blouses, no more man up, no more referring to both kids as the masculine 'guys'.

Anecdotally...

I don’t know how much it was actually said but it seems to have sparked a lot of outrage

But you made an OP that has had people frothing for pages, at something 'the Met said' when you don't actually know they said it, and if they did, it was in very specific circumstances?

It's not far off being fake news, you know.

The case of Sarah Everard is tragic. she did indeed have every business to walk home safely. Unfortunately though, well, way more than unfortunately, she couldn’t. There are always going to be these kind of crimes. How would a curfew work? I mean, if you are capable of taking the life of a human being, are you really going to not do that after 6pm? A curfew seems to me to be punishing all men for the actions of an abhorrent few. Are men going to be arrested on their way home from work if they are after 6pm? Men unable to go out for a meal, a drink or a party? What a sad existence. Damn it, I like men! Are there arseholes among them, dangerous people? Yes, sadly, but in the vast, vast minority. No-one, male or female or gender fluid etc should have to fear violence. Human nature being what it is though, it is out there and always has been. With freedom comes risk, sadly.

Actually @Bubbinsmakesthree, to be fair to you, you did make those points. Apologies

SO instead we enforce a curfew on women through fear but thats ok then is it?

@peak2021

If the police and the government are so concerned about women walking in darkness at night, how about making the night an hour shorter by stopping the antiquated practice of putting clocks back in winter?

With all due respect, changing the time on a clock does not alter the tilt of the Earth on its axis.

@Spidder

But you can make men behave. Women are conditioned to behave from childhood. Boys are conditioned to be 'boisterous ' and ' boys will be boys'. Boys learn to behave from those around them. We need to change the whole culture. My ds is growing up watching his dad respect women. Dh even changed the language he uses when dd was born: no more big girls blouses, no more man up, no more referring to both kids as the masculine 'guys'.

There are psychopathic men who cannot be 'taught' not to attack women. And these people are the murderers.

Telling people not to kill women is hardly 100% effective. I mean, there are laws against it and life sentences. Men know that, and still some of them kill people.

If the threat of a lifetime's prison sentence doesn't stop them, that why would their mate telling them not to, work? And if they're prepared to break the law to kill people, do you think they're going to obey a curfew?

@reesewithoutaspoon

SO instead we enforce a curfew on women through fear but thats ok then is it?

No-one is enforcing a curfew on women.

@Notthemessiah
More men than women are killed by men, by quite a large percentage. Male violence is a problem for both sexes - blaming all men for it is not the way forward. Not walking home alone is good advice in lots of places, regardless of sex.

Exactly. What we need is a better, kinder, more equal and harmonious society with much better schools environments. This will eventually, in perhaps a few decades, lead to better parents, better communities, and fewer social misfits - violent or otherwise. In such a society, the prisons and support services will also be less stressed and better able to deal with the smaller number of criminals who do still require help and psychiatric care.

We will never get anywhere near a time where abduction and murder doesn't happen, until we are brave enough to change the narrative.

It's already extremely rare. It will never go away entirely because there are always some psychopaths. Even if we reach a point where men no longer wolf whistle and shout nice arse at women out of white vans, there will always be very occasional evil people out there. I don't think the two issues should be conflated.

Women who feel unsafe walking alone are in most cases overthinking the risk. They are hundreds of times more likely to get run over by a car driver mounting the pavement than get murdered by a stranger. But somehow that thought isn't nearly as scary!

Exactly. What we need is a better, kinder, more equal and harmonious society with much better schools environments. This will eventually, in perhaps a few decades, lead to better parents, better communities, and fewer social misfits - violent or otherwise. In such a society, the prisons and support services will also be less stressed and better able to deal with the smaller number of criminals who do still require help and psychiatric care.

Agree. Demonising all men is not the answer. Proper investment in public services and a more equal society would make more difference than anything else.

There are very few psychopaths in the world. The vast majority of male murderers or abusers are not psychopaths.

it was mid evening and she was on the main South Circular.

In a lockdown. When there is hardly anyone around. I live not far away and the streets are deserted after about 7pm.

‘Place a curfew on men then. Job done‘

That's disproportionate. You can't blame a whole group for the actions of one person. Most men do not murder strangers.

Plus it would probably have the reverse effect in that law abiding men would stay home, so there would be fewer people about generally to deter the small number of opportunist criminals.

This sort of crime is vanishingly rare and there's no need for anyone to change their behaviour, apart from in the immediate aftermath until they make sure they've got the person that did it. Which is exactly what they've advised

^^ This @SnackSizeRaisin

If you watched The Ripper the women were blamed for their attacks, some of them smeared as sex workers when they were not.

Jack the Ripper's victims too, apparently at least three of the five were not sex workers. Lazy and lascivious men preferred to see it that way to make the attacker into an avenging anti-hero rather than an inadequate creeping around in the dark after vulnerable lone women.

' I mean, if you are capable of taking the life of a human being, are you really going to not do that after 6pm? A curfew seems to me to be punishing all men for the actions of an abhorrent few. Are men going to be arrested on their way home from work if they are after 6pm? Men unable to go out for a meal, a drink or a party? What a sad existence. Damn it, I like men! Are there arseholes among them, dangerous people?'

There have certainly been many occasions where women have been told not to go out alone etc when stuff happens.

Don't you see the hypocrisy of saying that ALL women and girls are potential victims and so on certain circs should curtail their lives.

But that men should not all be tarred with the same brush?

Women also go out to work, get home after dark, do shift work, have no choice but to walk. We also like to go out for meals and to go to parties.

When we are told to not go out on our own etc no one says 'what a sad existence'. They say. Very sensible. And of course if a woman decides not to stick to it, or can't because of work etc. Well. If anything happens. She was warned, wasn't she.

Additionally loads of women and girls routinely take all sorts of precautions (stick together, get cabs, don't get too pissed, don't accept drinks etc etc) in their lives. Some cost money. Some are inconvenient. All of them remind women and girls that they need to 'look after themselves'.

The fact that when something like this happens the police do sometimes say to women don't go out after dark, stick to well lit areas, don't go out on your own etc it's seen as sage advice.

While the idea that men might be restricted in this way instead is met with utter confusion. What a bizarre idea! Totally bonkers.

Incidentally when there's a man who is serially assaulting men or murdering them about, does anyone know if a stay in indoors etc notice has been given to local men?

@BeautifulDay12

A lot of people think we shouldn’t have to make ourselves safe..and instead the men shouldn’t be attacking us.... but that’s a bit like saying we shouldn’t have to wear a seatbelt because everyone should just drive very safely. We aren’t in control of someone intent on murdering us, but we are in control of ourselves, so until we live in a time where abduction and murder doesn’t happen, it makes complete sense to at least try to avoid situations that might make us more vulnerable...much like we are doing with covid! We wear masks and stay indoors to protect ourselves and others from covid. In an ideal world there wouldn’t be a pandemic, but whilst the virus is out there we do what we can to avoid catching it. You can’t just tell the virus to not infect people or tell people that they shalt not murder.

The murderer will still go out but he won’t be hidden among the other men. If all good men stay in then all men out and about are suspect and the police can deal with them. Women will be the majority out and about.

Approx Homicide rate per 100,000. Some random developed countries:
Japan 0.2
Spain: 0.6
Ireland: 0.9
UK: 1.2
US: 4.9

Framing extreme violence as a “man” problem is true to an extent. But then what? It’s one symptom among many of a dysfunctional society. Why are American men 25 times more likely to commit murder than Japanese men?

The reality is, there will always be crime. There will always be men who attack/ murder woman. Nothing is a deterrent. In the USA, they still have the death penalty. And very long prison sentences. Yet people still commit crime there. Obviously the fear of getting caught doesn’t compute with them committing these actions.
Asking women to take care at night, in the dark hours is nothing new. Of course a woman has the right to go where they want and at whatever time. But there’s aways a risk in everything in life.

How about the police men are home, and armed police women patrol the curfew

I'm of the opinion that it should be legal for us to carry tasers for personal protection. Why should we lose our liberty because toxic masculinity (masquerading as 'harmless lad culture') is out of control??

They need to sort their fucking shit out.

Thing is though its not a small psycopathic minority that curtail womens freedom . Its the continued low level harassment as well that deters women. The shouts from vans. the groups of men leering and making sexual remarks. You cant be sure what response you are going to get.
Tell em to fuck off they get arsey . ignore them and get shouted at and called a fat slag who no one would want anyway. Its the general hostility from so called normal men that makes going out solo or in the dark an unpleasant place to be.