AIBU to think many women put themselves in a bad financial position?

[Sunflowers095]

So there's a lot of talk about the gender pay gap and also how women have been more affected by the pandemic and had to take on more caring responsibilities. While I understand there are single parents etc. in most situations what I don't understand is:

• why don't women go for higher paying careers or marry lower earning men, therefore being the main breadwinner
• why don't women choose partners who will take on 50% of caring responsibilities, chores, etc. rather than have kids with someone who doesn't contribute and just put up with it?

Another thing I see often is women deciding to be SAHM, come back part time, extend maternity leave. Nothing wrong with this choice but in the context of a career surely it's not the best way to support that goal? Especially when many SAHM say that they decided to stay at home because their wage would barely cover childcare. That's not the point! Long term it increases the earning potential if a woman stays in work.

While I agree that a lot of inequality still exists I feel like many people make conscious choices that make their financial situation worse. Women I know who decided to take shared parental leave, go back to work full time, make their partner take on equal responsibility etc have all had great careers. Am I missing something in this conversation?

I'm not trying to be judgemental in any way towards non career driven women or women who want to be homemakers as I think it's great people have a choice and being a SAHM is an important job! I just mean purely from a financial/career perspective here.

Well then that’s down to your own behaviours as parents, it’s not because of some special, magical mummy bond.

Behaviours like what? You initially implied that the reason my children have a stronger attachment to me is because my husband must not be involved or hands on enough, which as I’ve explained, is ridiculously far from the truth, so now you are saying it’s because of how we are as parents are behaving. What behaviours are you now accusing us of?

All the research shows that babies and children are closest/most secure with their primary caregiver(s), whoever that/those person(s) may be.

Then I guess we have something abnormal going on in our family. That most absolutely must be the case seeing as our children do not feel or behave in line with how the research says they should.

I may have posted this before but I think change is happening. Where I work, a medium sized male dominated engineering company there are quite clear age differences.

Dad's under 35, all appear to use the flexibility in hours to accommodate parenting and partners requirements. I also aren't aware of any SAHM either in their partners or women in the office, although a couple of women did return part time.

On the flip side, over 50s are very vocal and traditional, "it's the woman's job" etc. One has 5 kids but never changed a nappy because he "couldn't deal with the smell".

I don't overly have a problem with the older guys, it's just the way they were brought up. I don't agree with the current trend of hating older people for not realigning their whole life experience with idealist teens.

It can be slightly intimidating if that's the right word when you tell an older manager you can't attend a meeting because that's the time you leave for school pick up but fortunately the company has very good policies and it's perfectly acceptable to tell said management to fuck off if they roll out the women's work lines!

@ClearMountain

why don't women go for higher paying careers or marry lower earning men, therefore being the main breadwinner I’d have loved a higher paying career. But I wasn’t given the opportunity. Doors were closed. DH’s employer has an unwritten policy about not hiring women of childbearing age who might swan off on maternity (this also extends to other people who they think might be a “problem”). Lots of employers discriminate. Women on average still earn less than men. And lots of women want a higher earning man because they know he’ll have more opportunities than she will, and at some point she’ll need to give birth and be supported for a while.

why don't women choose partners who will take on 50% of caring responsibilities, chores, etc. rather than have kids with someone who doesn't contribute and just put up with it?
My DH was always very equitable. Until we had a baby and he didn’t have a breast to put in the baby’s mouth. Until he couldn’t safely cosleep because he wasn’t a breastfeeding mum. Until I was on maternity while he still had to get up for work in the morning, so of course the one who doesn’t have to get up should look after the baby at night. Until he was promoted so of course he had to focus on his job which left me holding the baby. We don’t purposely reproduce with dicks - they become that way after the baby is born.

This is it in a nutshell.

We need to stop blaming women and look at the societal expectations placed on both men and women at home and in the workplace. We need to start addressing this from a very young age as there is evidence that gender norms in relation to jobs are formed between the ages of 5-8.
We need to think about the language used when we discuss the behaviour or girls/boy and men/women.
And we need to look at the structural barriers which prevent women from participating in the labour market equally.

Unfortunately the last year has been catastrophic for women and their careers.

@DoormatBob

I may have posted this before but I think change is happening. Where I work, a medium sized male dominated engineering company there are quite clear age differences.

Dad's under 35, all appear to use the flexibility in hours to accommodate parenting and partners requirements. I also aren't aware of any SAHM either in their partners or women in the office, although a couple of women did return part time.

On the flip side, over 50s are very vocal and traditional, "it's the woman's job" etc. One has 5 kids but never changed a nappy because he "couldn't deal with the smell".

I don't overly have a problem with the older guys, it's just the way they were brought up. I don't agree with the current trend of hating older people for not realigning their whole life experience with idealist teens.

It can be slightly intimidating if that's the right word when you tell an older manager you can't attend a meeting because that's the time you leave for school pick up but fortunately the company has very good policies and it's perfectly acceptable to tell said management to fuck off if they roll out the women's work lines!

This is so good to read. In a decade or so when the workplace is full of people who know no different it’ll be a very different landscape.

I am a SAHM and left a career to do so. I wanted to be the one raising my children, doing school & nursery runs, going to plays, volunteering in school, taking time on my own hobbies, going on school trips, joining the PTA, being there if children are unwell, looking after our home, meeting friends, exercising, reading, going for long walks at my own leisure, having time to visit my elderly grandparents and care for them when needed and luckily I have a husband who has the same mindset as me.
Call us old fashioned, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it works for us and we’re both very happy in our relationship & our set up.
If we ever split, I have my own money which would mean I could be a house and not be financially dependant, but we live a very stress free life and I wouldn’t change our set up for anything.
There is more to life than being a slave to a job. Your job title doesn’t define you.

Sorry I forgot to mention, our decision would’ve been completely different if we couldn’t afford for me to be at home.
By afford to I mean afford everything; we holiday a few times a year, DD does several activities out of school, we are very financially comfortable and don’t need any top ups etc.

@ThornAmongstRoses

I’m not accusing you of anything. I’m simply saying that there is no magical bond that exists which means children are more closely bonded with their mothers as opposed to their fathers. Sorry if you don’t like that, but there it is.

I’m not accusing you of anything. I’m simply saying that there is no magical bond that exists which means children are more closely bonded with their mothers as opposed to their fathers. Sorry if you don’t like that, but there it is.

According to you. And of course I don’t dislike your opinion, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

As am I and I just happen to disagree with yours.

Nothing wrong with that.

YABU

@ThornAmongstRoses I agree with what you're saying. My 11 year old son is much much closer to his dad than he is me. Had been since the moment he was born.

@FuckyouBrennan

I’m not a slave to my job, far from it! I love it, it’s my calling in life. I would do it even if I wasn’t paid handsomely for it. DH feels the same. We’re both ex-pat scientists in managerial positions in Switzerland. Either one of us could easily not work. We bought our house here based on 1 salary alone.

But we both love our jobs, so they aren’t chores, they are pleasures. I love going to work in the morning! I realise that I’m lucky in this though.

We both also take days off here and there to help at the school (DS1 is in reception); we both helped with DS’s school ski days for example (we live in a ski resort).

DH is a volunteer fireman (fire service is voluntary in Switzerland) and I co-manage the tennis club. We’re active members of our community, not job slaves!

I don’t personally need to give up work to have an enriching and fulfilling life, on the contrary. But I appreciate that everyone’s different and some people prefer a different approach. Unfortunately though, most women who do stay at home are left financially vulnerable.

According to you. And of course I don’t dislike your opinion, everyone is entitled to their own opinion

It’s not my opinion, it’s a fact. Point me in the direction of the scientific evidence for this so-called bond. I haven’t found any. So in the absence of proof, it remains a belief, just like belief in God is (and the burden of proof lies with the believer, similarly).

There is more to life than being a slave to a job. Your job title doesn’t define you.

I'm not a slave to my job but it is a HUGE part of my identity - I love what I do and I have worked very hard to get where I am.
I also have time do do all of the things you listed - it doesn't always have to be an either/or situation.

@TheJerkStore that’s great but not everybody has that. One of my DC is disabled and I feel my time is much more well spent fundraising for charity, doing lots of work with therapists and researching new ways to support not just my son, but other children with the same disability. I get to give him my all, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that I couldn’t do that if I also worked.

For me it’s either or. I couldn’t fit all the things I enjoy in as well as a full time job. I would feel things were rushed, like friends of mine who work and don’t have as much time to do things.

FuckyouBrennan

I know not everyone has that - my job is actually to research and write about women's career development. This is topic I know well.

I took offense to your insensitive comments about being a slave to your job and your job title not defining you - I can imagine the response if I'd said 'motherhood doesn't define you'.

We need to stop judging women for the choices they make and assuming the situation is completely black and white. I hate the assumption that just because I work full time means I can't/don't participate in family life. And I hate the fact that this judgement is only ever levelled at women. Nobody tells men not to be slaves to their jobs or that their job shouldn't define them.

It’s not my opinion, it’s a fact.

So what you’re saying is that I’m imagining the fact my children are more attached to me than they are their father? And this is because all research says that children 100% categorically can not, (and it’s a proven FACT as you put it) have a closer attachment to their mother than their father?

Unless their father has no input/interest in their upbringing of course?

We need to stop judging women for the choices they make and assuming the situation is completely black and white.

This x100

So what you’re saying is that I’m imagining the fact my children are more attached to me than they are their father?

No that’s not what I’m saying.

I am saying that you’re imagining the reason why. You are imagining the reason is some kind of intangible, magical mummy bond. There is no proof that any such bond exists.

Thus, the actual reason why they are more attached to you must actually be something else.

We need to stop judging women for the choices they make and assuming the situation is completely black and white.

I think that’s something we can all agree on!

Thus, the actual reason why they are more attached to you must actually be something else.

I think tonight, once my husband is home from work and the boys are in bed we probably need to have a good talk about it then and try and identify where we’ve gone wrong so we can rectify it. Hopefully it won’t be too late to salvage their attachment to their father so it’s more equal.

I think tonight, once my husband is home from work and the boys are in bed we probably need to have a good talk about it then and try and identify where we’ve gone wrong so we can rectify it. Hopefully it won’t be too late to salvage their attachment to their father so it’s more equal.

It would probably be better than continuing to believe the difference is caused by something imaginary, yes.

@FloconDeNeige

I think tonight, once my husband is home from work and the boys are in bed we probably need to have a good talk about it then and try and identify where we’ve gone wrong so we can rectify it. Hopefully it won’t be too late to salvage their attachment to their father so it’s more equal.

It would probably be better than continuing to believe the difference is caused by something imaginary, yes.

You two having fun? Not questioning your lived reality thorns but it’s a huge leap into space to call it a theory that holds universally. To do that, you need data. I’m a great mum and I have daddy’s boys. He leaves early for work and my smallest will wake up and son that it’s me not daddy. I haven’t gone wrong anywhere and nor has my husband. La vie c’est la vie, it’s all part of development and everyone being their own individual.

@timeisnotaline

I think you make a good point.

The difference could be down to any number of things; perhaps the children are more similar in personality to one parent and naturally gravitate towards them. Perhaps one parent is more lenient than the other or has interests that appeal to the children more.

@forinborin

I wish someone had told me how much harder it is to juggle work with a school aged child, compared to nursery. Just popping back to FT work when they start school turns out to be unrealistic for many families. Yes, this. I always wonder when people mention that it will all get easier when they are at school. Cheaper, maybe, but that is well compensated by the additional load. For me, it became twice as difficult - juggling wraparound and holiday care, keeping ten thousands minor things constantly on your mind - reading bands, PE days, homework, newsletters, PTA fundraising... and still there's an occasional: "Muuuuum, didn't you know today was an international dress as a pineapple day, and I was the only one without a costume!"

1000% this. Its so commonly advised on here that life gets much easier when they start school and both parents can work FT when actually it's the opposite in my eyes. With childminder/nursery/nanny, it is much easier to put them in childcare 8-5pm. They're with the same people all day and when they get home, the most they need is dinner, bath and bed. Of course, we all want more time with them but not having it is not detrimental. Occasional celebrations like book day but nothing major and plenty of notice. No friendship issues to listen to or not understanding what teacher is doing.

With school it's a whole new story. Firstly wraparound care is different providers so no continuity, then there's holiday care. Also, homework - my child's school expect parents to listen to them read daily on top of all homework. They want parental input on work and us to be aware of what they are doing at school. There's also just being there so they can tell you when something isn't right - for me, this can't be achieved when I don't get home until 6/6.30 in the eve and have one hour with my child before they go to sleep. And finally, all the other random requests PP mentions above for fancy dress, donations, fundraising. If finances meant we didn't have a choice, if course I would do it but there's no chance I will otherwise be working full time out of choice while my children are primary school age.