AIBU to think many women put themselves in a bad financial position?

[Sunflowers095]

So there's a lot of talk about the gender pay gap and also how women have been more affected by the pandemic and had to take on more caring responsibilities. While I understand there are single parents etc. in most situations what I don't understand is:

• why don't women go for higher paying careers or marry lower earning men, therefore being the main breadwinner
• why don't women choose partners who will take on 50% of caring responsibilities, chores, etc. rather than have kids with someone who doesn't contribute and just put up with it?

Another thing I see often is women deciding to be SAHM, come back part time, extend maternity leave. Nothing wrong with this choice but in the context of a career surely it's not the best way to support that goal? Especially when many SAHM say that they decided to stay at home because their wage would barely cover childcare. That's not the point! Long term it increases the earning potential if a woman stays in work.

While I agree that a lot of inequality still exists I feel like many people make conscious choices that make their financial situation worse. Women I know who decided to take shared parental leave, go back to work full time, make their partner take on equal responsibility etc have all had great careers. Am I missing something in this conversation?

I'm not trying to be judgemental in any way towards non career driven women or women who want to be homemakers as I think it's great people have a choice and being a SAHM is an important job! I just mean purely from a financial/career perspective here.

I agree with you, OP. We have come some way in terms of women's rights and maternity pay but I do find it a bit odd if people expect having a year off, or more, sometimes several times in your career, not to impact on your career or income.

@ThornAmongstRoses

Do women not find it tedious and isolating too?

I imagine some do whereas others probably love it.

Personally I don’t find being at home with them tedious and isolating, but that’s just me. Many other women probably feel very different.

I was one of those women that found it tedious and isolating. I was made to feel like a terrible mother for feeling like that.

So, men don't want to stay at home with their children because they think they'll find it tedious and isolating and because they don't want actively damage their careers.

But women - we just love all that shit. Okay.

It couldn't possibly be that we are conditioned to think like that and are subject to stereotypes and societal expectations around men and women's role in the home and workplace? Could it?

@ThornAmongstRoses you happily stated most men wouldn't want to stay home and that more women would choose to stay home, I haven't implied anything you're the one making sweeping statements.

As others have said, there are barriers in the way of men being the main carer which need to change. My children were born just before shared mat leave came in but my husband negotiated a day off a week (half a day drop and an hour extra on each of the other days) for six months while I went back to work early on kit days and then using annual leave. He was told in no uncertain terms that he was not to ask again and it was made pretty clear it was weird for a man to want reduced time. He ended up leaving after the 6 months because they wanted him to start travelling abroad 2+ weeks at a time and he didn't want to leave the children for that long. That's restricted his career choices.

Since then, even though his employers have been flexible, every time he needed to take time out for a child care issue he's had to explain why I couldn't do it.

Last year at the start of lockdown, my boss told me I could work evenings or weekends and reduce hours - whatever was needed to get homeschooling done. My husband was told he had to be on site every day (despite having previously worked from home some of the time) and there would be no flexibility for homeschooling. He ended up on furlough and the fact that he'd asked for flexibility was a factor in this. He's since been made redundant.

This year he's been the one who did the homeschooling round a part time commitment and when I asked for flexibility to help him, the answer was "of course". To be fair, my employer would have given exactly the same flexibility to a man - but I work in a traditionally female sector, whereas my husband's is male dominated.

I was very lucky that I found professionally developing roles that were part time and flexible so I could spring straight back into full time on a reasonable salary. I'm probably earning 10,000 less than I would have done if I'd stayed full time over the last 6 years and I can't progress to the next step because I'm not prepared to commit to unlimited hours just yet.

So, men don't want to stay at home with their children because they think they'll find it tedious and isolating and because they don't want actively damage their careers.

But women - we just love all that shit. Okay

It couldn't possibly be that we are conditioned to think like that and are subject to stereotypes and societal expectations around men and women's role in the home and workplace? Could it?

All my posts have been in relation to women who want to stay at home, not those who are forced into it for all the reasons that have been mentioned before...stereotypes, financial reasons, societal expectations etc.

I don’t agree with women feeling forced to stay at home if they don’t want to, though I know it happens for all the above reasons. And I agree it’s shit and unfair.

The attitudes I faced when I went back to work full time after my first child was horrendous....and that was women making comments to me. Complete disbelief that I would work full-time after having a child. I did stand up for myself and ask them if they’d say that to my husband, which tended to shut them up.

The attitudes I faced when I went back to work full time after my first child was horrendous....and that was women making comments to me. Complete disbelief that I would work full-time after having a child. I did stand up for myself and ask them if they’d say that to my husband, which tended to shut them up.

I had exactly the same thing and responded in the same way.

We need to acknowledge societal expectations and the role they play in the decisions women and men make. They play a much bigger role than many realise. It's so important

@ThornAmongstRoses

I don’t agree with women feeling forced to stay at home if they don’t want to, though I know it happens for all the above reasons. And I agree it’s shit and unfair.

But you explicitly said most men won't want to stay at home, with no justification for why, so how do you suppose those women who don't want to stay at home do if you are giving men a free pass to do as they please? Can't you see you a part of this "unfair" problem?

But you explicitly said most men won't want to stay at home, with no justification for why, so how do you suppose those women who don't want to stay at home do if you are giving men a free pass to do as they please? Can't you see you a part of this "unfair" problem?

I said they probably don’t want to stay at home (which I stand by) because they probably think it’s isolating and tedious.

How does me saying that equate to me saying that women should suck it up and stay at home?!

Me expressing an opinion is not me free-passing anything.

I doubt there are men out there jumping for joy because now they can guilt-free run off to work because some random poster on MN has said it’s ok.

I don’t think it’s ok.
I’ve never said it’s ok.
I don’t agree with it.

But I still stand by my opinion that men probably do feel like that and society/stereotypes (which I don’t agree with) mean they can get away with it.

@ThornAmongstRoses so how and why are they getting away with it? Because people like you are dismissing any conversation around equality by saying men don't want it anyway.

ThornAmongstRoses so how and why are they getting away with it? Because people like you are dismissing any conversation around equality by saying men don't want it anyway.

You’re absolutely right. It’s “people like me” (how offensive) that are at fault and to blame for men’s shortcomings and sexist attitudes. Although I don’t think it’s ok and I certainly don’t agree with it, it’s still my fault.

DH and I don’t have children yet, but would like to try soon. If we are successful, I will become a SAHM for the foreseeable future. I would happily take on volunteer, freelance or part-time work if it made sense, but I will not pursue a significant career while I have children. This is feasible for us, but obviously does come with some risks. DH could leave me or die, but I think these scenarios unlikely and therefore do not want to set my life up around them.

The reasons I would choose to primarily be a SAHM have to do with quality of life. I know I would want to be with my baby and believe it is good for them to have consistent one-to-one nurturing. Older children are more independent, but still benefit from a good amount of parental availability and support. DH and I want to have time to spend together and with friends/extended family. Both of us have interests outside of work that we wouldn’t want to give up completely. I also feel happier when the house is tidy, meals are on time and there is ample time for the general admin of life.

why don't women choose partners who will take on 50% of caring responsibilities, chores, etc. rather than have kids with someone who doesn't contribute and just put up with it?

It makes more sense to me to specialise: one person doing the majority of the work at home, one person earning the majority of the money. It means that there aren’t scheduling conflicts when it comes to taking care of babies/ill children and dealing with school holidays. Also, the earning partner can focus on their job more, which allows them to potentially get more interesting or higher paid work. I don’t think it has to be the woman at home, but it will be most of the time because they are the ones that get pregnant/breastfeed. Women also seem to enjoy the homemaking role more than men in my experience.

Women also seem to enjoy the homemaking role more than men in my experience.

Because society tells them this.

@VereeViolet

DH and I don’t have children yet, but would like to try soon. If we are successful, I will become a SAHM for the foreseeable future. I would happily take on volunteer, freelance or part-time work if it made sense, but I will not pursue a significant career while I have children. This is feasible for us, but obviously does come with some risks. DH could leave me or die, but I think these scenarios unlikely and therefore do not want to set my life up around them.

The reasons I would choose to primarily be a SAHM have to do with quality of life. I know I would want to be with my baby and believe it is good for them to have consistent one-to-one nurturing. Older children are more independent, but still benefit from a good amount of parental availability and support. DH and I want to have time to spend together and with friends/extended family. Both of us have interests outside of work that we wouldn’t want to give up completely. I also feel happier when the house is tidy, meals are on time and there is ample time for the general admin of life.

why don't women choose partners who will take on 50% of caring responsibilities, chores, etc. rather than have kids with someone who doesn't contribute and just put up with it?

It makes more sense to me to specialise: one person doing the majority of the work at home, one person earning the majority of the money. It means that there aren’t scheduling conflicts when it comes to taking care of babies/ill children and dealing with school holidays. Also, the earning partner can focus on their job more, which allows them to potentially get more interesting or higher paid work. I don’t think it has to be the woman at home, but it will be most of the time because they are the ones that get pregnant/breastfeed. Women also seem to enjoy the homemaking role more than men in my experience.

Please, please stop with the ‘women tend to enjoy it more’. That is a ridiculous generalisation based on misogynist societal messaging that says women should want and enjoy it, therefore any who don’t are vilified and judged as PP have said they have first hand experience of. Maybe you’ve chosen this because it’s your individual preference - although if the prevalent societal message was for men to be the default SAHP or for parents to share 50/50, would you still have chosen this? Debatable, because choices aren’t made in a vacuum - but please don’t start generalising harmful assumptions about other women, some of whom would rather gouge their own eyes out with a fork than be a SAHP.

Please, please stop with the ‘women tend to enjoy it more’.

I’m not asserting it as a truth - only as my opinion based on what I’ve observed. Even if it was true in general, it doesn’t make it right for everyone. I agree that each person needs to make decisions based on what works for them personally.

I think it's 50/50. Personal choices and social pressure that normalises women 'naturally' being the main care giver whether they want to or not.

It's a far harder route back to work with a pre 1 year old, paying over 1k in nursery fees, to see them for less than an hour a day, and both rushing to either drop off and work, or rushing from work to pickup... or take maternity leave for the full 12 months. And this slog goes on until they're 3 and a bit, when you get the funding and it becomes slightly more affordable. Even for families who are earning decent wages, 1k a month is a shocking amount to have to find.

I can see why women make the choice to stay off. But then of course, the damage to their career has already been done. It seems to not matter that you had a great career pre kids, once you have them, a lot of employers simply see a person who will want time off to deal with sick kids, and won't want to contribute to the bullshit presenteeism culture by staying late, because they can't.

Covid has only squeezed these perceptions further where women are the ones by and large who have had to compromise their jobs to look after children at home. Until we teach our next generation at every level about gender equality, true equality, things won't change. I can't still believe in 2021 this is still an issue. As my MIL said, I don't understand why childcare is often still just 9-3, parents work 9-5, it's not like women only just started to join the workforce. It's been well over 50 years. It's time for a change. Nothing changes if nothing changes

I think if you are a woman who found being at home “tedious” or whatever, it’s hard for you to conceive that other women feel very differently.

I can only speak for myself but I think if I’d had to leave my kids in a nursery or with anyone else, I would have been devastated. It would have felt like the most unnatural thing in the world. Of course, if I’d HAD to do this then I would have - and I would have tried to convince myself that it was all for the best, etc etc. But, I can’t lie, I don’t think I could think of many worse things (for me).

So you will tell me this is social conditioning. Maybe it is - partly. It’s much stronger than that though. The main point is this - I don’t care whether it’s social conditioning, or instinct, or a combination of both. This is my life and the way I feel is the way I feel. I own that and don’t need to apologise because I can honestly say I have never felt more compelled to do anything in my life.

We are all socially- conditioned anyway to some degree. Do you think the “I need to have a job” mentality is not affected by social-conditioning of another type. Of course it is! Men are socially-conditioned too. Obviously. This is a given.

The main thing is self-awareness. You can be aware that women and men are conditioned to gravitate towards certain roles. But that doesn’t mean you should have to deny your instincts.

My personal experience is that biology has a huge impact once children come along. I saw this in my own relationship. Clearly this makes some people very uncomfortable on here, to the extent some try and erase the impact of biology on the mother-baby bond. But it doesn’t matter, because it’s real. The fact that not all women are cut out to SAH (and that’s absolutely fine) does not erase the experiences of other women and if they say something was instinctive for them, then it was.

The main point is this - I don’t care whether it’s social conditioning, or instinct, or a combination of both. This is my life and the way I feel is the way I feel. I own that and don’t need to apologise because I can honestly say I have never felt more compelled to do anything in my life.

I feel the same way, and interestingly, I received the opposite social conditioning. Everyone around me never questioned that I was going to have a good career and be a ‘successful’ person. It was pushed on me because I was a high achiever and I didn’t question it until well into my 20s. It took me quite a while to come to the conclusion that maybe it was OK for me to want to be at home if I had children.

It makes more sense to me to specialise: one person doing the majority of the work at home, one person earning the majority of the money.

It's way more tax efficient to both work part time - especially if you're higher rate tax payers but even if you're basic rate tax payers as you then get two personal allowances. Plus two lots of pension contributions from employers.

Sure if one of us was at home, the other might progress faster at work but not enough to balance out the other's entire salary plus the tax and pension advantages