AIBU to think many women put themselves in a bad financial position?

[Sunflowers095]

So there's a lot of talk about the gender pay gap and also how women have been more affected by the pandemic and had to take on more caring responsibilities. While I understand there are single parents etc. in most situations what I don't understand is:

• why don't women go for higher paying careers or marry lower earning men, therefore being the main breadwinner
• why don't women choose partners who will take on 50% of caring responsibilities, chores, etc. rather than have kids with someone who doesn't contribute and just put up with it?

Another thing I see often is women deciding to be SAHM, come back part time, extend maternity leave. Nothing wrong with this choice but in the context of a career surely it's not the best way to support that goal? Especially when many SAHM say that they decided to stay at home because their wage would barely cover childcare. That's not the point! Long term it increases the earning potential if a woman stays in work.

While I agree that a lot of inequality still exists I feel like many people make conscious choices that make their financial situation worse. Women I know who decided to take shared parental leave, go back to work full time, make their partner take on equal responsibility etc have all had great careers. Am I missing something in this conversation?

I'm not trying to be judgemental in any way towards non career driven women or women who want to be homemakers as I think it's great people have a choice and being a SAHM is an important job! I just mean purely from a financial/career perspective here.

I know what you mean OP, and I'm one of the few who gave up a career to be a sahm.
I know I never wanted a corporate high earner who was never about for the family, so I wasn't attracted to that type.
At the time my career was as important as dh, I couldn't have been with anyone who treated me lesser.
To this day no matter what situation or circumstances we have been in there has never been issues about who works, or how much money etc. Surely you can picture what a life with someone would look like.

@Camomila I agree. I work part time I have expressed to management I would like to progress to become part of the leadership team. They have said to me I have the skills, experience etc but I would have to work full time to be around for the whole week when things are going on. I was just offered a job as a clinical nurse specialist on the contrast they were very family friendly and offered set days for childcare unfortunately I had to decline as I am pregnant and experiencing nausea/ sickness all day long which is draining me. I feel I have limited myself now and put my career on hold for another 2 years but we wanted another baby.

I think that there are a lot of contradictory views about this on MN.

The first view is that all money is family money: there is no yours and mine, only ours.

The second is that the dad (almost always the dad) should pay half of all childcare fees.

That’s contradictory because let’s say Parent A earns £2000 after tax. Parent B earns £1200. They have two children so nursery fees are £1500. Parent B might make a profit of £450 but overall the family are working at a loss of £300 p/m (more in fact because of travel costs, etc.)

There is also the view that after a day at work, the working partner must instantly be expected to get stuck into housework, cooking and childcare. And all night feeds if not breastfed (and if breastfed, must do everything else.)

Because it's only women who get pregnant, then gestate and give birth to babies. And then have to cope with the immediate physical impact of pregnancy and child birth.

Not all employers are geared up to sharing parental leave, men don't always feel comfortable taking shared parental leave. And if you want to look after the baby then someone has to take leave.

So while women are giving birth to the next generation of humans, men are able to carry on their career trajectory.

And once someone has sort of taken a pause with their career to give birth then it can make sense to carry that on with part time work.

Add in the fact that not all couples discuss who may take maternity or paternity or parental leave until pregnant, it may come as a surprise that there are different opinions about who takes time off.

Nice post OP, maybe take a less misogynistic and woman blaming position next time.

FFS. Women making putting themselves in a bad financial position? Have a think .

Structural inequality. I worked my ass off in creative jobs throughout my twenties always getting paid less than all the men I worked with. And than my boyfriend, who became my husband. Stupidly didn’t go in for law or management consultancy. Believed the crap about being able to do anything and devoted myself to not for profit stuff for more than a decade, but was always under confident even when high performing. Small firm basically exploited me and I didn’t realise because I was trying to do good. Didn’t realise how badly things were skewed in favour of older generations, didn’t get on the housing ladder in time, love my husband, his career was taking off. I have worked at every stage. Exploitative company only paid statutory maternity, I left, went freelance, looked after baby and child (who is now just at school), pandemic hit. I am still working but I earn about one third of my husbands salary because he never had to skip a beat in his work, and I did. Because children don’t just pop out and go to school, you know, there’s some nurturing in between. Happy to think maybe I could have done some things differently, but then I probably would have been a different person. But hey, if you want to say it’s all my fault that I don’t earn as much, go right ahead. It’s a free world still (in some places at least).

YANBU. People have personal responsibility and should take ownership of their own choices.

If you choose a shit man to have children with, don’t be surprised when you turn around and he’s a poor father and you’re doing everything yourself.

(Not only that but then your only option is to leave them and you’ve broken up a family home and your children have suffered.)

It isn't necessarily a motherhood issue in my experience. I worked in women's fashion buying before my current job (low paid, as it's a "desirable" industry) and there were lots of childfree women there. I have friends in creative roles like publishing, professional baking, specialist magazine editing - all 3 single women, on not great pay. The women I know earning buckets are in roles like business analyst, vet, and financial services which all start way back in school with an interest in science and numbers.

I did A levels in English and Art, mostly girls, and I know the Physics and Maths classes were full of boys. My other 2 were in languages and it was only the only evenly split area of education I came across. And I'm not old - this is the 2000s!

@WhoAreYah

I didn’t marry my husband because he wasn’t more than me. I married him because I love him.

I actually went part time and subsequently gave up work to spend more time with my children and to support my family at home. I could have earned lots of money in the private sector but I simply didn’t want to.

I may be one of those women you clearly look down on and in a vulnerable financial position but we made the choices we did because it was what worked for our family. I was not thinking about protecting myself on the off chance that we’d split up 5 years later.

I don't look down on anyone. The point I was making is that every choice has good and bad consequences. You chose to focus on your family and you didn't want a career in the private sector, and a different woman might choose the opposite (and in turn wish she had more time for family). Both are absolutely fine/normal but will result in different outcomes.

But if you make a choice and miss out on a higher earning potential/career is that a disadvantage because you're a woman or is it just a downside of a lifestyle choice you made?

There are so many reasons,
Wisdom about protecting oneself financially often comes much later in life...
Many men become very lazy AFTER dcs come along, when it is too late..
Many women want to see their dcs a reasonable amount and the high flying careers usually mean long hours, and some frequent travel.....
Staying in a low paid job just to send your dcs to nursery, and so that you can retain that job is not appealing if you enjoy spending time with your children.....
Young women are often a bit gullible and manipulated by men.
All mothers should teach their DDs to stay independent, start saving in their own names, get on the property ladder as early as possible, all ideally before Dcs.....

In the real world - i.e. the one I inhabit! - people aren't as obsessed with their careers as they seem to be on MN. I'd even say that what many on MN see as their "career" is actually just a job or profession.

People work to earn money to live but want a work/life balance. I can completely understand why women want to be with their babies, not want them put them in nurseries. Who want to work part time when their children are small. I also respect women who want to do the opposite. That's feminism to me.

I'm a single mum in a very high-earning high-pressured job and I married a man (my now ex-h) who was earning way beneath me. Trust me Op, it's not as smart and idyllic as you make it sound!

I would LOVE to have the option to work part-time and spend more time with my kid and be supported by a higher earner.

harristile sorry to hear about the morning sickness, I had hyperemesis with DS2. It was awful, I took about 5m off work. (Work were great about it, accepted my sick notes with no fuss and welcomed me back after mat leave).

Ellpellwood I retrained as an adult and took every statistics unit I could I occasionally bemoan myself for not taking A level physics because I didn't want to be the only girl in the class...I should have listened to DM more!

why don't women choose partners who will take on 50% of caring responsibilities

Very difficult to predict this ahead of time.

Not to mention, the ability to outsource childcare to other low-paid women has disguised the inadequacy of men. This has become abundantly clear during the pandemic.

I agree that far too many women don't have a financial plan. I can't understand it, especially nowadays.
A lot of intelligent women my age that I know personally put their careers, earnings, savings, pensions and contributing to the family pot last. I grew up with a lot of influence from my rich aunt and uncle and knew how important being financially independent was. I worked full time in good jobs until I had dc. Took 9 months off. Then I changed career because it was more dc friendly yet still earning well. Never needed childcare. I progressed and was full time again as soon as I could until late 40's when I had had enough. I could only take this option because I had already saved and invested and paid into my pensions.

Ellpellwood I retrained as an adult and took every statistics unit I could smile I occasionally bemoan myself for not taking A level physics because I didn't want to be the only girl in the class...I should have listened to DM more!

This is it exactly! You had to be quite a confident girl to take triple science instead of double for GCSE when your friends didn't, or A-Level Further Maths as the only girl in 15 boys. I'm in financial services now - full of men obviously!

Just to add that another factor is that it’s taboo to say as a woman that you’d rather be at work than at home with a newborn. I’ve had this twice with short maternity leaves and reactions have ranged from incredulous to disapproving. Meanwhile my career has taken off. I’m happy with my choices but I get a lot of stick for them.

@oatmilk4breakfast

Structural inequality. I worked my ass off in creative jobs throughout my twenties always getting paid less than all the men I worked with. And than my boyfriend, who became my husband. Stupidly didn’t go in for law or management consultancy. Believed the crap about being able to do anything and devoted myself to not for profit stuff for more than a decade, but was always under confident even when high performing. Small firm basically exploited me and I didn’t realise because I was trying to do good. Didn’t realise how badly things were skewed in favour of older generations, didn’t get on the housing ladder in time, love my husband, his career was taking off. I have worked at every stage. Exploitative company only paid statutory maternity, I left, went freelance, looked after baby and child (who is now just at school), pandemic hit. I am still working but I earn about one third of my husbands salary because he never had to skip a beat in his work, and I did. Because children don’t just pop out and go to school, you know, there’s some nurturing in between. Happy to think maybe I could have done some things differently, but then I probably would have been a different person. But hey, if you want to say it’s all my fault that I don’t earn as much, go right ahead. It’s a free world still (in some places at least).

I'm not blaming women for not earning as much. But you say yourself that having children has set you back unlike your husband. But having children is not a necessity and it is a choice.

I think most men should step up and most employers should be more open to shared parental leave and other means of making it more equal. But equally I see a lot of women choose to do something financially unwise because of what they want (family, time, other things) but yet feel disadvantaged later. And I don't think it's misogynistic to have that viewpoint.

Amongst more immediate financial issues, I couldn't not work as I wouldn't be contributing to my pension, and would be quite literally losing out on free money because of it.

The age gap always needs discussing in this - the majority of heterosexual relationships are with the man older than the woman in the UK. (Fun side note, the person who developed the Guardians dating website said when testing it, all men they asked to test it - all men - put the age range they would search from being 18 to their own age. None entertained the idea of a woman even 1 year older than them would be a suitable match.)

When you are in your 20s and early 30s, 3-4 years difference in career stage - even on exactly the same career path - can mean a dramatic difference in wage.

Couples who want their child to be at least partly cared for by a parent, make the decision that the lower earner should be the one to go part time or resign. It just happens to be the woman is the lower earner. But of course they will be if she's younger, and most are younger.

(Don't come and tell me about you being 10 years older than your dh and the higher earner and he being a great SAHD - believe its its around 15% of marriages are with the woman being older. Most aren't and it does make a difference.)

There is no point telling woman to date younger men if men won't even consider woman older than them.

@Circumlocutious but is it difficult to predict? Surely, its not that different from the period before kids i.e. does your partner do most of the cleaning/cooking etc, have they ever moved/quit their job to support yours etc. It's not like men turn lazy overnight nor do they turn into super dads overnight either. I mean if one's partner never cleaned the house before without being nagged, they are unlikely to do so afterwards

I'm not trying to be judgemental in any way towards non career driven women or women who want to be homemakers as I think it's great people have a choice and being a SAHM

Yes, you are. Not everyone is driven to get on in a career, and many people are happy just to be parents and leave career progression til later on when their children are older. It is possible. Not everyone sees it as their lifes work to work full time and take minimal maternity leave. If they do, fine, but you are criticising other peoples choices. Not all men are shits who dump their SAH wives.

@Camomila I agree with more career part-time jobs. I've been looking at remote jobs, loads coming up but they are all full-time. Some industries/careers are better than others for part-time/job sharing. Dc was in hospital recently and the Consultant Paediatrician was actually two women who were job sharing. Thought that was great.

Dh works v long hours and I want the kids to see a parent for more than half an hour a day so I work part-time for the moment. No regrets, they will be grown in a few years so I can work more then if I want...not sure I want a really stressful job but maybe if I found my passion!

Loads of people make decisions that look in hindsight like not that great. Lots of people wouldn’t marry someone if they could foresee that they would divorce later or that the marriage would be abusive. I guess the best thing is to increase people’s awareness of doing it differently and to make provisions (as best they can) in case things don’t go well.

But ultimately people’s risk assessment and appetite differs. Some people neglect their physical health (I need to do more exercise), some their financial health, some their relationship health, some their mental health.

It’s good to advise the next generation about the dangers of some of these things, but for people who have made bad decisions, maybe a better way would be to give them ideas and ways to optimise their situation.

BTW I would be the higher earner. But then we would also pay way more tax/childcare etc so wouldn't be massively better off if we both worked full-time.