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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think many women put themselves in a bad financial position?

293 replies

Sunflowers095 · 10/03/2021 18:44

So there's a lot of talk about the gender pay gap and also how women have been more affected by the pandemic and had to take on more caring responsibilities. While I understand there are single parents etc. in most situations what I don't understand is:

  • why don't women go for higher paying careers or marry lower earning men, therefore being the main breadwinner
  • why don't women choose partners who will take on 50% of caring responsibilities, chores, etc. rather than have kids with someone who doesn't contribute and just put up with it?

Another thing I see often is women deciding to be SAHM, come back part time, extend maternity leave. Nothing wrong with this choice but in the context of a career surely it's not the best way to support that goal? Especially when many SAHM say that they decided to stay at home because their wage would barely cover childcare. That's not the point! Long term it increases the earning potential if a woman stays in work.

While I agree that a lot of inequality still exists I feel like many people make conscious choices that make their financial situation worse. Women I know who decided to take shared parental leave, go back to work full time, make their partner take on equal responsibility etc have all had great careers. Am I missing something in this conversation?

I'm not trying to be judgemental in any way towards non career driven women or women who want to be homemakers as I think it's great people have a choice and being a SAHM is an important job! I just mean purely from a financial/career perspective here.

OP posts:
ParadiseIsland · 10/03/2021 20:44

- why don't women go for higher paying careers or marry lower earning men, therefore being the main breadwinner
Because I didn't chose my partner according to his wage. Besides, when we met we had he same wage anyway...

- why don't women choose partners who will take on 50% of caring responsibilities, chores, etc. rather than have kids with someone who doesn't contribute and just put up with it?
Because men don't act the same way when you are two adults wo children than when there is a hild in the mix. Suddenly, my H started t behave like a 1950s guy. There was no warning/sign he would do that.

Another thing I see often is women deciding to be SAHM, come back part time, extend maternity leave.
It wasn't a choice. Nowhere near. I was made redundant whilst on ML (yes its illegal. it doesnt mean it wont happen). My wage was less than nursery for two dcs and H was travelling for work (not present for half of the week). This made almost impossible for me to actually hold my job... where I needed to travel.

(Note when we met, my job was requiring me to travel, did when I had dc1 and dc2. DH didn't but he suddenly found himself in a job that was taking him to the other side of the country every week. It lasted 6 years - all he time where the dcs were little. It made it impossible for me to work. despite the fact I hated it)

So did I put myself in that place? No I didn't.
Should I have shouted and demanded more? Maybe but to get what? His stock answer was that he couldnt chnge his job just like this. He had a job, so I couldnt complain ... because I wasn't working (because I was made redundant etc etc).
And we were financially wprseoff with me working.

It wasn't a choice FROM ME. It was a nice series of events all rooted in patriarchy and mysogynist expectations (don't want a woman who might have a child again -work-, its normal for women to be at home when dcs are little -dh- etc etc). High cost of childcare etc...
It was basically doing the best I could do within the framework I have been given.

Symbion · 10/03/2021 20:46

"I just mean purely from a financial/career perspective here."

I think that's your answer. People don't make these decisions purely from a financial/career perspective.

Shared parental leave wasn't an option when my children were babies, and in any case I think I wanted them to have a consistent primary carer for as long as possible. However we did both go PT when our eldest started nursery. We've never treated my career as second best to DH's.

However, juggling both our jobs round my autistic son's needs has pretty much broken us both, so now I'm not working and DH is the only wage earner. Of course it's not ideal "purely from a financial/career perspective", but my and my family's mental health is more important.

cinammonbuns · 10/03/2021 20:47

@WhoAreYah I am happy it is working for you but nowadays it’s not an ‘off chance’. Half of marriages end in divorce. That is fact. So it would be simply unwise for anybody not to prepare for that possibility. Whether it’s in 5 years or 20 years.

SmokedDuck · 10/03/2021 20:47

Everyone weighs up their values in all kinds of ways, and within the environment they are in makes the choice that seems best.

Not everyone thinks making as much money as possible, or maximising career, is all that important, and some think that kind of lifestyle sucks.

As for why many women stay home after kids, generally there is a feeling that it is better for the kids than institutional care, or the family doesn't make enough to afford the care they would consider adequate, or they discover that two parents working FT in the kinds of careers or jobs they have does not make for a nice family life.

I suspect one of the main reasons that it is more often women is because once you include gestation and breastfeeding it tends to make more sense in many cases.

As for why more women don't marry men with lower incomes, that's an interesting question, but whatever the answer it seems to be broadly true - women tend to look for men who make a similar amount of money or more than they do, whereas many men do no think that way.

wonderstuff · 10/03/2021 20:48

Bottom line is that most men don't step up and do domestic work, so women do. Remember watching a documentary, both parents were surgeons, dad was convinced it was easier for his wife to be on call for childcare and organise household demands, they had the exact same job.

LadyOfLittleLeisure · 10/03/2021 20:49

@justchecking1

If you're in a crappy, low-paying dead-end career in your 30's, then staying home probably looks like an attractive alternative.

If you want to know why women are in this position in their 30's, you need to look way back to the way women are socialised, why careers that attractive women are so low paying, and why women choose to accept this.

In short, it's incredibly complicated and can't really be reduced to "personal choices".

Absolutely this
ParadiseIsland · 10/03/2021 20:51

I'm not blaming women for not earning as much. But you say yourself that having children has set you back unlike your husband. But having children is not a necessity and it is a choice.

So according to you, it's OK for men to have children.But women shouldnt becaue it would hurt their career Hmm.
You don't see that the issue here is the fact that men and women arent affected in the same way and this is exactely where the issue is?

And the reason why men and women are not affected the same way is still the same crap
women still do most the HW
women still take on all the mental load etc etc
And saying my partner just isnt going to be like this because I won't let him do that just isn't working.
Pus of course, if said women decide to then divorce because the father is not pulling their weight, they end up in similar financial struggle or career struggle because they will struggle to get childcare etc etc anyway. Basically they are not going to be better of career wise and financially after leaving said 'not pulling their weight' father.

Sunflowers095 · 10/03/2021 20:52

@anamazingfind

I'm not trying to be judgemental in any way towards non career driven women or women who want to be homemakers as I think it's great people have a choice and being a SAHM

Yes, you are. Not everyone is driven to get on in a career, and many people are happy just to be parents and leave career progression til later on when their children are older. It is possible. Not everyone sees it as their lifes work to work full time and take minimal maternity leave. If they do, fine, but you are criticising other peoples choices. Not all men are shits who dump their SAH wives.

Nope I'm definitely not. I'm just addressing the fact that there's consequences to each choice. Just like a full time working parent might be missing their children, a SAHM might feel like they're missing out on earning potential/career advancement.

Both choices are absolutely fine, but if we make either choice is it fair to say we are disadvantaged because we are women? Or is it just a natural consequence? One person gets a financial reward/fulfil their ambution and the other one gets to spend time with their children as they grow up and have valuable memories with their family.

OP posts:
SmokedDuck · 10/03/2021 20:59

Here is the other thing about "high paying careers":

Many jobs are not high paying careers and someone has to do them.

Women as a whole are suddenly not all going to be able to go into satisfying, professional jobs. Neither are men. Just deciding to "set themselves up better" does not mean there is a need for more managers or upper level civil servants or executives.

Circumlocutious · 10/03/2021 20:59

@Sunflowers095

I have no idea how your points about SAHMs are related to the struggles of mothers during the pandemic. SAHM’s haven’t been especially affected.

The ones that have been are women in careers who have found themselves suddenly taking on the brunt of homeschooling during lockdown. The pandemic exposed the fact that men’s attitudes hadn’t fundamentally changed. School/nursery was a safety net that allowed men and women to think they were equal: it’s sudden absence exposed that gender inequality was still rife, albeit concealed under normal circumstances

dotdotdotdash · 10/03/2021 21:00

I knew from an early age that my brothers were not expected to help round the house and I was. In my first job, a male of similar skills and abilities to me was promoted and I was not. I won’t go on, but now through the pandemic, again I have missed promotion because I am primary carer to my kids and don’t have energy for the extra networking and putting myself about that promotion requires. I don’t know that doors would have opened more easily for me were I a man, but I strongly suspect they would!

I think this is victim blaming OP

Ellpellwood · 10/03/2021 21:00

Women (of childbearing age) are automatically disadvantaged in the workplace. Do you not think that part of the reason women don't outearn their husbands is that many companies assume a 27-year-old woman with 5 good years of experience, who interviews for a promotion, may also want to take 2(ish) maternity leaves in short order?

Sunflowers095 · 10/03/2021 21:01

@wonderstuff

Bottom line is that most men don't step up and do domestic work, so women do. Remember watching a documentary, both parents were surgeons, dad was convinced it was easier for his wife to be on call for childcare and organise household demands, they had the exact same job.
That is really horrible and I would agree it's a massive part of the issue too.
OP posts:
riddles26 · 10/03/2021 21:01

@LemonRoses

That’s one perspective. It’s not mine.

A couple raising a family need to work together to gain synergy. If you both limit yourselves, all of you have less money. If the woman takes on childcare to support the man’s higher earning career, they both benefit. In fact, everyone does as children aren’t put into institutional care at a very young age. Childcare costs are lower. There is greater flexibility to move around for higher paid jobs.

If the woman is initially the higher earner, as I was, it is fine until you find yourselves needing to survive on maternity pay after the second child is born. That may well be unrealistic; better the man keeps on his high earning job.

My perspective only works if the couple both commit for life and respect child rearing as being worthy of as much respect as being a CEO. You need equality of access to money and AVCs for you both, not just one. There needs to be support for the woman to step up in the world of work again.

It can work using a very traditional model.

This times a million. Most people have a good balance but I see some posts where both parents are so busy working and ensuring everything is 'equal' in terms of how much they earn and spend that the children are left behind.

I see our marriage as a lifelong partnership, when going part time I ensured we had taken steps to protect me financially but ultimately I want to be home with my children when they finish school, I want to be able to take them to activities and enjoy their company, listen to them read etc. This doesn't happen if we both work full time in our careers

RUOKHon · 10/03/2021 21:01

I feel like you don’t have children OP.

Once you become a mother you start to understand how much the system is stacked against you.

I went back full time, to my very well-paying career, after my first baby. I was mummy tracked. Overlooked for promotion time and time again in favour of my childless colleagues. When I asked my bosses what was going on they would just say ‘oh we wanted to give you something easier to work on because we don’t want to overwhelm you now that you’re juggling work and children, blah blah blah’. All sounds like nice words but it basically meant I was put in a box and on the metaphorical shelf. My mental health and self confidence took a battering. I also wasn’t getting much more than four hours’ sleep a night, which probably didn’t help my performance at work.

That was the start of the end of my career in that industry. I ended up being a SAHM for a while in order to retrain. But at no step of the way along the disintegration of my old career did it feel like I was ‘choosing’ it. It felt more like I was trying to catch a falling knife and after a thousand cuts, my career died.

Of course during this time DH’s career went from strength to strength and his salary doubled, because him becoming a father made absolutely no difference to the way his employers saw him and they made no assumptions about the sort of work he would now be able or willing to do now that he had a child Hmm

I’m back on track now, but I can completely see how it just...happens to some. There are so many other factors at play - lack of childcare, or unaffordable childcare, your DH turned into a massive 1950s twat on your maternity leave and hasn’t changed back, your child has additional needs, you have debilitating PND, your company doesn’t allow flexible working, your DH changed offices and his commute is now an hour each way but yours is only 20mins and every time your child is ill you’re the one to have to collect them from nursery...

It’s not like women pop out a baby and then go, ‘right, that’s me part time for the rest of my life’ (and if they did, it’s entirely their right and their business).

Sunflowers095 · 10/03/2021 21:03

[quote Circumlocutious]@Sunflowers095

I have no idea how your points about SAHMs are related to the struggles of mothers during the pandemic. SAHM’s haven’t been especially affected.

The ones that have been are women in careers who have found themselves suddenly taking on the brunt of homeschooling during lockdown. The pandemic exposed the fact that men’s attitudes hadn’t fundamentally changed. School/nursery was a safety net that allowed men and women to think they were equal: it’s sudden absence exposed that gender inequality was still rife, albeit concealed under normal circumstances[/quote]
But do you really not know before having children that your partner won't be capable of sharing that workload and responsibility with you? Do men do 50/50 chores and when childcare and work is discussed they lie and then suddenly change completely overnight?

I agree it's on men but no one is forcing women to have children with these useless men.

OP posts:
Iceskatingfan · 10/03/2021 21:04

It’s complex and a lot of it is about structural sexism in UK society at heart I would say. I would add that you seem to only be looking at the situation from a financial perspective. For many people (and probably more women than men ?due to how we have been socialised culturally ?due to biological hormonal bonding with our children etc), big life decisions are not made with reference to finances alone. Some may prioritise spendings time with children and/or other family, caring responsibilities withthin the family etc, or even simply a less stressful exhausting having-it-all type lifestyle (especially after seeing our mother’s generation struggle, suffer and fail with that trope, plus some of us feeling deep down if we are honest with ourselves that we would have much preferred our mothers to be home more and at work less, however understanding we can be that they were smashing glass ceilings which was important and did not have the options that some of us have today of part time work etc. thanks to their efforts).

Some of us got really ill as a direct result of being female (I ended up sectioned for months due to puerperal psychosis and was then diagnosed with bipolar disorder which like most mental health conditions, affects far more women than men), and that limits earning capacity and fitness to work full time and put ourselves in the high stress and long hours and high responsibility situations and roles that tend to pay well.

I will also say here that I was very limited in both my earning capacity and ability to “make” my partner take on a fair share of the work after having children by domestic abuse, something that as in my case, often becomes evident only after pregnancy or childbirth. My husband promised me the world and I stupidly believed him as he kept up the facade long enough for me to marry him and have a child with him and then I was (relatively) trapped. And as much as others might point and laugh and say it’s my own stupid fault for marrying such an awful man in the first place, you have to understand that the man he really was was not the man he portrayed himself to me to be. My whole family and all my friends also thought he was this great guy and have all been absolutely horrified at how it all turned out. And I’m not sure any of that is my fault actually. I’ll never forget one friend seeing how my ex rated me soon after childbirth saying to me “but why do you let him treat you like that?” I didn’t “let him” any more than any women “let’s thmemselves” be raped. Nobody can control another person’s actions or words, all you can do is break ties and walk away which I ultimately did but most of you can surely understand how difficult that is a few days postnatally.

So now here I am, a single mother with bipolar disorder and an abusive ex who is constantly taking me to court over child custody (because oh yes the family courts are also structurally sexist in my opinion when it comes to how they deal with women and children who have been the victims of domestic abuse). All of those things put me at a financial disadvantage, and all of them are intimately linked to being female.

i have been the higher earner in a relationship more than once and let me tell you, many men, particularly the “alpha male” type absolutely hate this dynamic, they feel consciously or otherwise that it emasculates then I think, and it can breed serious resentment. I don’t think it should be this way but I think there is little doubt that men’s role in UK society is changing fast and I think men do feel generally under threat, that women don’t really need them any more. Among my friends I can’t help but observe that separation and divorce tends to happen when the woman outperforms the man financially, and couples where the woman earn less tend to be much happier and more settled. For this reason having loved this experience more than once, I would much prefer that any future partner earns more than I do.

Having said all of that, I will also say that I would be in a hugely worse situation financially than I am now had I not studied hard and taken the opportunities that I am privileged to have had in life to establish myself in a relatively high-earning career which allows me to work part time (and therefore protect my mental health, spend time with my child which is super important to me, have some semblance of a social life, deal with constantly being dragged to court, and pursue other non work-related interests). And I’m very glad I did so and part of it was motivated by wise older women advising me as a teenager to make sure that I was never reliant on a man financially.

Ultimately however, give me the fortunate position of a really solid marriage with a decent man earning well who was happy for me to stay at home and take care of our children, and I would have jumped at the chance to do that despite it not being financially the best option for me. I think the role of wife and mother is very important and valuable and I would have loved to have been freed from what I see as the shackles of having to earn a living to be able to devote myself to that wholeheartedly. I think I would have found it incredibly fulfilling. It wasn’t to be for me but I don’t understand why some women find it hard to understand why something women would choose this path if it’s an option for them.

I hear what you are saying about there being value in continuing to work in the longer term even if you are only paying your salary straight over to childcare but you have to understand how demoralising that feels surely? Plus for many women it’s not even that but putting yourself in a position where you actually have less money in your pocket at the end of the month by going to work, and not only having to juggle all of the stresses and responsibilities of being a working mother, but also losing important time with your child and handing them to someone else who will see their first steps, first words, attend their nativity plays etc. It’s valid for some women to feel that if the money is all the same either way they’d rather raise their child themselves than outsource a lot of that to someone else. I remember my own glass ceiling breaking feminist mother being horribly upset at one point when my younger sister started asking for our nanny rather than her when she was upset about something.

Ellpellwood · 10/03/2021 21:08

Do men do 50/50 chores and when childcare and work is discussed they lie and then suddenly change completely overnight?

...Yes? Have you not read AIBU?!

A couple goes from both working full time, and him mowing the lawn while she hoovers on a Saturday, to her at home for a year with a baby. He doesn't see why he should be doing the laundry when he is working a tiring job and bringing in 75% of the income. She doesn't see why she should do it all because looking after a baby is a full-time job. Resentment ensues.

cazinge · 10/03/2021 21:09

2 X full-time jobs (whatever they pay, you can only outsource so much) is hard when you have children. Even more so if either, or both, involve long/unpredictable hours and/or travel. DP and I are aiming for us both to work 4 days pw at 0.9 FTE meaning only 3 days pw of childcare required and we both have an extra day at home for life admin (as much as a toddler+baby allows). DP has had to change careers to make this happen and I've had to negotiate hard.

We both have had periods of being the higher earner/studying/looking for work etc. and we are both female so maybe our natural state is more balanced? Out of my NCT group of 6 other (straight) couples, not one father has changed their work pattern; 4 of the women have gone (very) part-time e.g. 2 or 3 days pw. 2 have given up their jobs completely. All profess to be feminists, varied careers/industries/job levels, different ages and husband/male partners jobs at differing levels. When this is the norm how will women ever achieve equality???

Ellpellwood · 10/03/2021 21:09

In fact there was a whole section of my NCT course about how maternity leave is not housework leave.

wonderstuff · 10/03/2021 21:10

I wanted, before I had the children, to have a career. For a while dh did 4 days and so did I, his work, concerned that everyone in the department might want a flexible arrangement put a stop to it after a few months. I couldn't cope with work and home and now I've reduced hours. Dh is great, but neither of us was prepared for how the kids would affect the equality in our relationship.

FTEngineerM · 10/03/2021 21:10

I don’t think the problem is all men.

I wrote a thread about sending DC to nursery to go back film time on full days and Jesus some people had a right rage on. Almost all women. If we can’t support each other’s choices as women, what hope do we have for men to support our choices too?

I’m moving into a career that’s only 10% women, actually up from 6% a few years ago. It’s well paid and I foresee out earning my DP if he stays at his current salary (I doubt this will happen though he has very high aspirations).

I’m not sure what to suggest but I am certainly no domestic goddess, the weight of the domestic chores is currently entirely on my DP because I feel so sick in the first trimester. We have a fair share usually, and I wouldn’t have entered into a long term relationship with him had I not been seen as ‘equal’ by him. You can usually spot misogyny a mile off. Give a wide berth.

There was a thread on here recently that got deleted where the guy was giving nursery funding advice and I had an absolute irrational rage for his wife/partner. He said there was no point in HER working since SHE’D only be left with £400 after paying for childcare.

What the fuck, it’s 50:50 OR relate it to income as a percentage.

There’s two camps I think: one where the woman maybe doesn’t realise what is happening and goes along with decisions that make her vulnerable (I don’t believe someone would intentionally make themselves vulnerable). Or the other who loved every aspect of child rearing and is purely in their element so quits to do it full time with the support of DP/DH.

You can’t say someone else choices are wrong but it depends on how much you want to protect yourself, and your children. I’m very independent, even when selecting a house I ensured it was one we could afford on either singular salary so in the event of something happening to us as a couple or ill health we’d be fine. I won’t be ‘left in the lurch’ so to speak. Ever.

RUOKHon · 10/03/2021 21:10

Most people have a good balance but I see some posts where both parents are so busy working and ensuring everything is 'equal' in terms of how much they earn and spend that the children are left behind

Yes I wanted to say this in my PP too. When DH and I were both working full time and earning the same big bucks, I was getting home at 7pm and putting the kids straight to bed. I never had any proper time with them. I missed them.

And they were in childcare for longer than my own working day (which was long). It was just a bit shit for all of us.

Iceskatingfan · 10/03/2021 21:13

And yes sunflowers095, believe it or not, that is almost exactly what happened in my case. It genuinely went from what felt like a modern equal partnership in early marriage with his actually cooking more of the time etc to a stand-up row when I wanted to go to the gym one evening before it closed (after he had had yet another go at me about having gained weight postnatally) before cooking his dinner. He would not let me go to the gym until I had made the dinner (he threatened to drive off somewhere with our young child and not let me know where he was if I left for the gym before I cooked for him). Then once I had made it he complained that I had rushed it because I wanted to go to the gym and refused to eat it as it was so disgusting (it was perfectly fine). In the Freedom Programme I learned that this sort of thing is a common tactic of abusers, they call it the “King of the castle” tactic. Yes there are some men that are just useless or lazy domestically but don’t underestimate how many men there are that are DELIBERATELY using housework etc. as a means of coercive control over women. It’s not fair to blame women for that (unless you’re one of those people that does not understand that nobody asks for domestic abuse to happen to them any more than they ask to be raped or murdered or stolen from etc).

B1rthis · 10/03/2021 21:18

Because it's not normal to leave your baby who is emotionally and nutritionally dependent on its mother just like every other species in the whole world.
We produce thin milk like elephants etc
(that keep their young close) but not like lions etc (that go off hunting for long periods of time so milk is more fatty) meaning our children are meant to be nursed regularly so need to be kept close for "survival" if we were to live in the wild.
We are hard wired to love our babies and each time we breastfeed the oxytocin reminds us of this.
It's important to financially support your family; career, savings, pension etc but returning to work at the detriment of your child's emotional development and attachment? Nope.
Also, you can't plan for every eventuality? Relationship breakdown/furlough/redundancy etc... all you can do is care for the future adults of society as best you can.