AIBU to think many women put themselves in a bad financial position?

[Sunflowers095]

So there's a lot of talk about the gender pay gap and also how women have been more affected by the pandemic and had to take on more caring responsibilities. While I understand there are single parents etc. in most situations what I don't understand is:

• why don't women go for higher paying careers or marry lower earning men, therefore being the main breadwinner
• why don't women choose partners who will take on 50% of caring responsibilities, chores, etc. rather than have kids with someone who doesn't contribute and just put up with it?

Another thing I see often is women deciding to be SAHM, come back part time, extend maternity leave. Nothing wrong with this choice but in the context of a career surely it's not the best way to support that goal? Especially when many SAHM say that they decided to stay at home because their wage would barely cover childcare. That's not the point! Long term it increases the earning potential if a woman stays in work.

While I agree that a lot of inequality still exists I feel like many people make conscious choices that make their financial situation worse. Women I know who decided to take shared parental leave, go back to work full time, make their partner take on equal responsibility etc have all had great careers. Am I missing something in this conversation?

I'm not trying to be judgemental in any way towards non career driven women or women who want to be homemakers as I think it's great people have a choice and being a SAHM is an important job! I just mean purely from a financial/career perspective here.

There’s more to life than money. And there is only one chance to raise your kids. You do what you feel best.

And I know it’s not very popular these days to say this but women who have given birth, for a whole host of hormonal reasons are more in tune to their babies waking at night, emotional cues and are often far less inclined to leave them all day to go to work than a man. I’ve lost count of the times over the years I’ve heard women say they cried as they left their children at nursery when they headed back to work. Never, ever heard a man express any guilt or worry about it.

All mammals have clear sex based behaviours in relation to raising young and as much as we humans like to think we are different, we are not. I know how unpopular this view is these days but I think regardless of whether or not laws are changed, structures and barriers are altered to make things more equal in the work place etc, for women who choose to have children, a higher proportion of them than men who have children, will actively choose caring for them over their career.

In summary, I believe it’s biology and women’s stronger connection in GENERAL, to their children that drives these decisions.

I completely agree with this.

I'm a high earner. DH and I earned exactly the same before we had children. He now earns exactly double.

I took off the absolute maximum maternity leave because I wanted to. I loved the time at home with my babies and I was a real struggle to leave them to return to work. Breastfeeding was important to me and I wanted to do it for a year with each. Having that time with them was more important to me than my long term career.

I dropped to 4 days a week and constantly question myself as to why I don't ask for 3 - we could manage it financially but I know long term it's better if I try to maintain my career properly, also while my employer can manage with me at 4 I think 3 would be a stretch.

I miss my kids every day at work and I love going to collect them. I don't really question why DH does not feel as desperate to work less - men are biologically different, he didnt carry them, birth them or feed them and those things create a different sort of bond. The hormones women produce during pregnancy and after birth do have a purpose.

@ThornAmongstRoses

And I know it’s not very popular these days to say this but women who have given birth, for a whole host of hormonal reasons are more in tune to their babies waking at night, emotional cues and are often far less inclined to leave them all day to go to work than a man. I’ve lost count of the times over the years I’ve heard women say they cried as they left their children at nursery when they headed back to work. Never, ever heard a man express any guilt or worry about it.

All mammals have clear sex based behaviours in relation to raising young and as much as we humans like to think we are different, we are not. I know how unpopular this view is these days but I think regardless of whether or not laws are changed, structures and barriers are altered to make things more equal in the work place etc, for women who choose to have children, a higher proportion of them than men who have children, will actively choose caring for them over their career.

In summary, I believe it’s biology and women’s stronger connection in GENERAL, to their children that drives these decisions.

I completely agree with this.

This sounds intuitive, but it is WRONG. Sorry caps , I’m not shouting, just it’s so important to understand this. It’s societal, and hormonal given our stereotypical gender based roles. See this study on men as primary carer for babies develop that same alertness to their safety and well-being that we think of as women’s intuition. Ladies, push your partner to actively care for and nurture your baby and they will be a better, more caring parent.

Oops wheres the edit button, here’s the Article medicalxpress.com/news/2014-05-dad-brain-maternal-primary-caregiver.html

Also OP the species is kinda fucked is neither sex wants to care for and nurture their own young.

Who do think ends up doing all the nursery care if more women in high paid roles decide to work more and take short maternity leaves etc? There are very few men in the early years sector so you just move the issue to a different group of women. Nursery pay is crap.

Timeisnotaline

It's not wrong. The article you linked to focuses on one little bit of the brain (the amygdala) and notes that means brains become more maternal (not equally maternal) when they have a higher share of the caring responsibilities. It is also referring to homosexual relationships where there is no mother present at all.

^But when a man takes on the primary caregiving role—in this case, as part of a committed homosexual relationship—both "parenting" regions of the brain become highly active, researchers found.

"They have the father's cognitive structures, but the amygdala is sensitive to child-care experiences and it can activate to the level of mothers," Feldman said.^

Breastfeeding and the hormones associated with it play a part, you wake FAR more easily to the baby at night when you are bf. We are mammals and men and women have different biology, this is indisputable.

I think it's important to remember some people live to work and some people work to live.

In my early 20s I was on career path but gave that up for something I wanted to do. It wasn't quite what I hoped but it's the sort of job that allows me to work part time with convenient hours and work doesn't build up when I'm not there. So I dropped to part time to raise my children in my 30s and was grateful to have a job I could just dip in and out of rather than a career. I wanted to be raise them myself, be there for school events, school runs etc. I earn a low ish wage but can contribute to the bills and have my own money. In reality I take care of all the family finances and have access to all our money, I'm not remotely financially vulnerable.

I took all the maternity leave as that was the only option at the time. But it was my body recovering from difficult births, my body breast feeding and my will to be at home. I wouldn't have wanted to share it. I didn't want to pay someone else to raise my children and we as a couple agreed on that. Yes I do more of the housework and childcare as I work fewer hours, so our working hours even out, just half of mine are unpaid.

I did all the night wakings when they were babies but as I was on mat leave I felt that was fair, as I was breast feeding it seemed sensible and as a PP said breast feeding mothers are instinctively more in tune with their baby than the father so I could wake a few seconds before baby, could feed lying down while dozing and be minimally disturbed. If I had asked my DH to do more he would, I never felt I was doing and unfair amount.

DH earns a good wage in the real world but is poorly paid according to MN criteria. Yes we could have done more with more money but money isn't the drive for me, you can't buy what I've gained and although DH has a good job at a senior level, that rather just happened as a natural progression in his company. He's not career driven and would rather not work if there was a choice.

I hate to think people pity me for my lifestyle or consider me vulnerable or unfulfilled. I'm very happy with my lot, not controlled and not controlling. I'm confident in my decisions and independent. Yes it's more traditional than some but that isn't wrong, it's just different. I could work more, earn more, rebuild a career, I simply don't want or need to. I have been there for all the 'firsts', all the school events, all the random times there needed me to pop a pe kit along etc. Being a mother is singularly the most important thing in my life and I'm not ashamed to prioritise it.

@TwittleBee you hit the nail on the head there. I happen to be the main earner and as you say it is hard juggling. I have an allergic child and it is so hard. Also trying to make sure whatever job I have to get pays very well as I'm the higher earner. Currently pregnant and due in 10 weeks, that is another two years of potentially lost opportunities.

@timeisnotaline

I am not saying that men can’t be nurturing or that women automatically are. My DH is very nurturing and a great dad. I agree that society does enforce gender roles, often to our detriment but the reason for this does not come from thin air. Of course men can become more maternal. God knows some women are far from maternal and societal expectations can harm either sex.

Nevertheless we are mammals. The way we attend to our children and families are greatly affected by our biological sex based differences and there is a wealth of research on pregnancy hormones and the effects they have on women from everything from bonding, waking and lactation to the way we speak to our offspring.

Expected gender roles have emerged because of these differences.

The real problem is the men set the rules of the “game”. Who says you have to work five days a week if your job is one where it can be done in three or split into shifts? Why must it be based in an office or workplace? The pandemic has proved WFH works! Maybe not with babies and small kids around but it works with proper childcare in place.

It shouldn’t have to be a choice to work or surrender everything. There should be more options so women can be properly equal. There should be more options for re-entering the workplace after a gap.

I guess all those saying they love to stay home have someone else going out to earn the money to pay the bills. What I’ve learned as a divorced mum (and kind of knew anyway) is that if you are left in the lurch you need your own income! So all the years when I juggled were worth it because now I can still support myself and most importantly the kids! They have not suffered in terms of standard of living, in fact apart from losing my life savings we are now better off because we don’t have the financial drain which was my ex.

As I was the bigger earner I never felt I could afford to pack in work and be a housewife - why deprive my kids of a comfortable lifestyle when I had the potential to fund it? I did go part time, still am now, so my career “progressed” at a snail’s pace. And it’s not just when small that they need you - teens may even need you more.

Success in life is more than money. Agreed. But life can be pretty miserable if you don’t have any.

I do think there is an argument that women should perhaps be more prudent over their choice to be a SAHM. Maybe more help offered to get women back into work?

I ended up in the not quite so common situation where my exDH hated me being on maternity leave. It pissed him off no end I was having “free time” off work (despite the fact I was caring for a newborn .

I wanted to go back 3 days a week but he wouldn’t accept that and I ended up back at work full time. It was hard because DC still wasn’t sleeping through and he didn’t help with that or much over the weekends.

However, things did change - I’m now a single parent and I’m bloody glad every day I held onto my job/career. I’d have been screwed without it.

Yes it would be lovely to live on a permanent “baby moon” but the hard fact is there is no guarantee at all that a man will stick around. You can be the perfect SAHM and he may go off with a woman from the office. Everyone should keep hold of a way of earning their own income!

I'm probably someone you're talking about.
Except after 5 days of 13 hour out of home working days a week, never seeing my dc only at the weekend when I was too tired to enjoy any of it I'd had enough. Probably had a breakdown in hindsight but I quit my job, did my notice and left to be a sahm for a while. I felt very guilty for not working but as the months went on I absolutely loved being with my baby dd so yes I have put myself in a bad financial position and given up my career.

My dd is now top of all of her classes I have a very close relationship with her and I am always there for her. I did try to go back to my career but I just couldn't, I hated it and again school drop offs and picks made it impossible not to be even more difficult to worn around. My dh travels a lot so he's not always there (although obviously not now)

Hopefully if anything happens to me and dh being poor will be worth it. I do work pt now but I earn a pittance to what I used to and not enough to live on. It does worry me but not more than me missing out on my dc life. I do envy those that manage to do it all! I definitely was not one of them though.

I watched my mum scraping money together most of her life. I always made sure I had a career and a decent pension. It's a better pension that my DH mainly because he was a slacker until 30. However it's been a tough road and takes all my energy to work at this level at 54. Not every woman wants to work that hard for it.

I think we need to focus less on the fact that people choose to stop work and spend time looking after their small children. After all, for a lot of people this is a fundamental part of having children. Instead we should be looking at ways that make it easier or indeed normal to return to work after a career break. This is what society should be aiming for in my opinion, that and more flexible working practices. Educational programmes for adults, return to work schemes, intakes for experienced people who have had breaks etc. Remove the stigma from having some time off in your career and allow more flexible working. Then if someone chooses to give up work for a few years then they don't end up screwed.

I agree that working life needs to change with more flexibility all round. Unfortunately the reality is that those who work the super-long hours get on - even if just shuffling papers - because they are visible. There should be better rights for everyone, presenteeism is such a big thing here. People should be able to advance their careers AND spend time with their kids. Sadly it is always the men who are willing to leave all the kid stuff to their other half who then get on.

Also now, looking at my pension, it won’t be as good as it should be because I worked part-time. I mean at least I have a pot because I juggled. I don’t know what the solution is but I do think the family law on divorce is wrong because my ex who did less all round walked off with more!

But women don't have to. I worked from 20 to 35 flat out in the City and contributed to a pension as soon as I could and bought a flat aged 22 and was stretched to my limits for 2/3 years with friends telling me I was stupid and should pack it in and travel the world instead if working 7.30 to 7.30.

I had my own house when I married DH at 31 and I was sufficiently successful not to marry someone I'd have to carry but also in a position if I'd wanted to afford being a single parent. Had DC between 34 and 38 (not easily). I always desperately wanted dc but coming from a broken home wouldn't have compromised their security.

Returned to work part-time when ds was 4 months but he was always ill as a baby so I gave up work before he was 1 and had 7 glorious years as a SAHM. The first two we were secure but stretched vis a vis income and outgoings.

DH's career took off once ds was born. I returned to work aged 43 when dc were at school. Starting at the very bottom and then taking prof quals. That was 18 years ago and at 60 I work very hard at director level. When I moved to my present organisation 8 years ago I was earning enough to viable transfer my pension pots into one pension scheme and brought in the equivalent of 18 years. In 2014 everything to that point locked into final salary. After a promotion my projected pension rocketed.

Women can have it all but not all the time and they need to plan their financial futures as if they alone will be responsible for them.

It isn't luck or just planning but the more you plan and harder you work the luckier you get.

Kittycorner - completely agree with your post. I've got a friend who has made similar choices but makes snide comments about others being able to spend more money when they could easily increase their hours (even if only slightly) to improve their financial situation. It annoyes my husband but it's their choice, their life.

@RosesAndHellebores it worked out for you really well! Well done. But it’s not so easy for everyone. Nobody can be sure their DH will go on to great things. Mine did not live up to his potential. I also owned my own house when he married. Lucky him - all the better to rip me off! As women our lives are still so tied to being married and that is wrong. I don’t buy the “chose the wrong one” argument at all. Any husband can turn out to be a bum or a billionaire but either way that shouldn’t define us.

Never, ever heard a man express any guilt or worry about it
That's because it's ingrain in them that they don't have a choice and need to get on with it and shut up.

I've worked with enough men who when encouraged to open up, have said that they miss their kids a lot and which they could work PT, but they see that's not an option because their partner is not prepared to up their hours.

@Firstbellini

The vast majority of jobs are crap. They are not corporate law.

This.

There are millions and millions of people both men and women in low paid crap jobs - everyone cannot have the top roles with the highest pay and greatest opportunity.

The point about women wanting children more than men, and there not being enough men who want children so much that they're prepared to organise their working life around them - is such a good point. In that situation, some women will prioritise having children over having them with an egalitarian man. Expecting a man who is either indifferent to, or lukewarm about, the prospect of having children, to go part-time, take paternity leave, take a salary cut etc. etc. etc. isn't going to make for a good real-world outcome.

What's the solution to this? No idea. Until the majority of men want children in the same way as the majority of women, then I suspect this pattern is going to continue, which is depressing.

(I take the point that a lot of this is socialisation and that if men were socialised re: childrearing the way that women are, things might be different, but at the same time I genuinely do believe that women are biologically compelled to have children in a way that men just are not. Not all men not all women, of course, but I don't think we get anywhere by ignoring biology.)

@trixies

The point about women wanting children more than men, and there not being enough men who want children so much that they're prepared to organise their working life around them - is such a good point. In that situation, some women will prioritise having children over having them with an egalitarian man. Expecting a man who is either indifferent to, or lukewarm about, the prospect of having children, to go part-time, take paternity leave, take a salary cut etc. etc. etc. isn't going to make for a good real-world outcome.

What's the solution to this? No idea. Until the majority of men want children in the same way as the majority of women, then I suspect this pattern is going to continue, which is depressing.

(I take the point that a lot of this is socialisation and that if men were socialised re: childrearing the way that women are, things might be different, but at the same time I genuinely do believe that women are biologically compelled to have children in a way that men just are not. Not all men not all women, of course, but I don't think we get anywhere by ignoring biology.)

This doesn’t apply to many BAME communities where men are expected to marry and have children.