To be very glad the judge ruled properly on Self ID and sex for the census?

[ItscoldinAlaska]

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/09/guidance-on-sex-question-in-uk-census-must-be-changed-high-court-rules?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0ARobpxFavIo53e2Pu6v4laOlBOGfwuEwkQmjOuG52F04-N6RXK1jsBx4#Echobox=1615318013

I have shared the FB link as the comments are eye opening. According to advisory guidance (before this ruling) the Census was advising that documentation that allows Self ID (e.g. a passport or driving licence) could inform the answer to sex on the census. This was challenged by an organisation that stated it was self ID through the back door. The judge ruled (correctly IMO) to change the wording. The advice states that you should put the assigned sex at birth and the sex you were registered as (on your birth certificate) should be used, a binary choice of F/M.

Later on in the census there is an option to state your gender. AIBU to think that if you are gathering statistics on sex, counting sex accurately is really important to inform policies? To account for how many females and males there are in an area is really important? The comments section has people who are stating that the numbers are so small it doesn't matter? Accuracy matters doesn't it? Or am I missing something? I am a health researcher. If you add skew into it, it leads to a lack of robust data and interrogation? There is an option to state your gender, so why is it trans phobic to give a binary option for sex? (Which is what the comments section debate was. Lots of TERF and Bigot being thrown at people like me, who thought statistical validity is important).

How, if people fill in female because they have a GRC and woman on the gender question? How does that indicate who is trans and who isn't

There aren't many trans people with a GRC because really most trans people don't need a GRC.

I haven't got one. I am eligible but I can't envisage a need to ever have to show it. Yet. Things seem to be changing.

Thats a good argument for keeping records accurate. If you change your sex markers on your medical notes then you will potentially miss screening call ups and hide important correlations.

How can you solve any thing when random things happen to random people and you aren't allowed to look at what links them.

There aren't many trans people with a GRC because really most trans people don't need a GRC.

Those with GRC are expected to be around 6K I believe. So, if many trans people state they are the opposite sex and the commensurate gender, the number of trans people remains ambiguous.

If this is a matter of discomfort, I have significant difficulties ticking the unemployed box. But I will still be doing it, despite my very poor mental health around the issue. That is my reality. Or should I tick employed?

@Whatwouldscullydo

Thats a good argument for keeping records accurate. If you change your sex markers on your medical notes then you will potentially miss screening call ups and hide important correlations.

How can you solve any thing when random things happen to random people and you aren't allowed to look at what links them.

Really, a trans marker should be on medical records.

I don't quite know what medical records have on them 'behind the scenes'.

But I will still be doing it, despite my very poor mental health around the issue. That is my reality. Or should I tick employed

Do you get treated as employed by society?
When society sees you, what do they see?

They don't see a male when they see me.

Well yes of course a marker a patient is trans should be on the medical records.

But it appears to he possible to change them , which shouldn't be possible obviously because its dangerous

@SenecaTrewe

Gotto, this isn't about you.

This is about filling in the census and it's thrown open a whole debate for trans people about how to fill in the form. Just as the gender identity question opened up questions on here. It seems that trans people are debating quite strongly about what to do

The guidence now tells them what to do now.

Fill in accurately according to your sex. (If you have a grc you can use that) And use the gender identity question to add extra info.

Just as the gender identity question opened up questions on here. It seems that trans people are debating quite strongly about what to do

What debate is to be had? You know your sex, there's only one answer. The only debate a minority deem to be having is whether they can get away with lying as an answer.

Why are they debating it? Why aren't they just planning to obey the law, like everyone else?

It's not like it's difficult. You tick the box that corresponds to what it says on your birth certificate, or your GRC if you are one of the 5000 or so people who have one. Then you choose whether you want to answer the gender question, and tick the box that best describes your situation.

If everybody did that, the government would collect good quality data about how many people of each sex have transitioned or identify as nonbinary (if that's an option) in each age group, and they will then know whether this is a huge group with every right to demand a bigger share of public spending and changes in legislation to reflect their needs/concerns, or not.

If lots of people ignore the legal position and tick the box that matches the sex they wish they were, the government ends up with poor quality data and a probable underestimate of how many trans people there are. How does that help anyone?

@GottogetaGRC

But I will still be doing it, despite my very poor mental health around the issue. That is my reality. Or should I tick employed

Do you get treated as employed by society?
When society sees you, what do they see?

They don't see a male when they see me.

The vast majority of transwomen are seen as male. Passing transwomen are vanishingly rare.

So how society sees you is what you are is that what you’re saying? It’s not an innate feeling?

When society sees you, what do they see?

I don't know. I don't go around asking everyone. But now I've thought about it, my first assumption would be to conclude that they probably couldn't care less. I'm not that important. They are doubtless more concerned with their own lives and own business than allotting value judgements to others.

Concerning myself with what impression I make isn't a question that's ever preoccupied me. I'm neither that self-conscious nor that self-absorbed. And no, I don't own any form of 'gender' privilege that means I don't have to think about it. My sex places me at a perpetual disadvantage: I have to look over my shoulder, 'society' tells me I'm not safe out of doors after dark. The only snap value-judgements I tend to make are innately programmed as a very necessary survival mechanism. Every single female lives that experience and will know exactly what I'm talking about.

This is about filling in the census and it's thrown open a whole debate for trans people about how to fill in the form.

The guidance on the sex question is now crystal clear.

The whole point of the ruling is that it isn't up for debate but a small minority of people want to place their feelings and how they are perceived over the truth. there is no 'debate' to be had. You either lie or you tell the truth. I posted this thread because as a researcher, truth is important to me. If data was consistently a lie, my job would be pointless. I may as well be a fiction writer.

@GottogetaGRC

But I will still be doing it, despite my very poor mental health around the issue. That is my reality. Or should I tick employed

Do you get treated as employed by society?
When society sees you, what do they see?

They don't see a male when they see me.

Well, if you want another alternative I most certainly look younger than I am.

I have huge anxiety about my age as well (being a certain age and unemployed and female is certainly an issue). And most people are surprised to discover my real age. I have been known to lie about it.

However, I will tick the correct box. Why?

Because, I know damn well what my age is, my doctor also knows what my age is because my body doesn't let me forget how old I am. This is the joy experienced by most every menopausal woman when they also reach the age when other age related issues coincide.

I also know that my area needs to know just how many females of my age are in the area to plan for the needs due to my age (the age that I do not look). If I lie on this census, what gives me the right to complain that my regional health authority is not providing me enough services for my needs.

The fact that I am unemployed also indicates to them that I cannot surely afford private services. And it also then allows my borough to realise there is now a lot of unemployed women of my age group who need services to get work (to push past any discrimination that me in my group my encounter, and do encounter).

For instance, courses to assist me to get a job that are flexible enough to also fit my childcare needs. Something, the census also tells my borough - that I was a 'geriatric mother'. yes... that is indeed what we are called if you are over whatever it is 30/35/ whatever age it is.

So. Yes. while society sees me as a younger woman because I don't display the usual age cues, I know that I am not as young as I look.

And it makes a difference with the census.

Well said @Helleofabore