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AIBU?

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Original poster

To be very glad the judge ruled properly on Self ID and sex for the census?

145 replies

ItscoldinAlaska · 10/03/2021 07:32

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/09/guidance-on-sex-question-in-uk-census-must-be-changed-high-court-rules?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0ARobpxFavIo53e2Pu6v4laOlBOGfwuEwkQmjOuG52F04-N6RXK1jsBx4#Echobox=1615318013

I have shared the FB link as the comments are eye opening. According to advisory guidance (before this ruling) the Census was advising that documentation that allows Self ID (e.g. a passport or driving licence) could inform the answer to sex on the census. This was challenged by an organisation that stated it was self ID through the back door. The judge ruled (correctly IMO) to change the wording. The advice states that you should put the assigned sex at birth and the sex you were registered as (on your birth certificate) should be used, a binary choice of F/M.

Later on in the census there is an option to state your gender. AIBU to think that if you are gathering statistics on sex, counting sex accurately is really important to inform policies? To account for how many females and males there are in an area is really important? The comments section has people who are stating that the numbers are so small it doesn't matter? Accuracy matters doesn't it? Or am I missing something? I am a health researcher. If you add skew into it, it leads to a lack of robust data and interrogation? There is an option to state your gender, so why is it trans phobic to give a binary option for sex? (Which is what the comments section debate was. Lots of TERF and Bigot being thrown at people like me, who thought statistical validity is important).

OP posts:
BrumBoo · 10/03/2021 10:57

@Dannydevitoiloveyourart another person trying to use intersex as a 'sex is a spectrum' argument? You're wrong (and offensive), there are still only two sexes, it's not an MN 'belief' but a scientific fact. In some rare instances some people have the factors of both, but does not make them a third or different sex from male/female. Sex is binary, there are only two.

Assigned is not correct, no one is assigned a sex. It is an observation of fact, not an interchangeable label.

Clymene · 10/03/2021 10:58

The question is what is your sex. The word assigned does not appear anywhere

Whatwouldscullydo · 10/03/2021 10:58

If course yanbu

Whatever your opinion on the whole thing. You cant target services or Play funding correctly if you don't have accurate information abiut the demographics of an area.

And that applies to trans people too. You cant provide them with services and support of its not clear how many are transitioning or have transitioned.

BrumBoo · 10/03/2021 11:00

@GottogetaGRC

Yet again ideology over common sense

I don't mind being recorded as being trans.

Personally, there is no chance of me saying my current sex is male.
I don't have an issue with saying that the sex on my birth certificate was recorded as male.

I have been out for 10 years. Had surgery years ago. I could get a GRC but I never have needed one.

Can people understand why people like me would not want to record their current sex as male but I don't have an issue with saying what their recorded sex was or in saying that they are trans - because it is important to know that - as has been pointed out.

@GottogetaGRC but your current sex is male. It doesn't matter if you don't care to acknowledge it, your sex is and always will be male. To put anything but male as a tick in a 'sex' box is an untruth.
GottogetaGRC · 10/03/2021 11:02

@GottogetaGRC but your current sex is male. It doesn't matter if you don't care to acknowledge it, your sex is and always will be male. To put anything but male as a tick in a 'sex' box is an untruth

Do you understand how difficult it is to tick that in a box?

BrumBoo · 10/03/2021 11:05

[quote GottogetaGRC]**@GottogetaGRC but your current sex is male. It doesn't matter if you don't care to acknowledge it, your sex is and always will be male. To put anything but male as a tick in a 'sex' box is an untruth

Do you understand how difficult it is to tick that in a box?[/quote]
@GottogetaGRC difficult maybe, but that's the truth, the facts, and the reality. Your sex will never be female, regardless of your choice of gender. Being untruthful on factual matters doesn't help anyone. Better not to tick the box at all than to tick the wrong one for a moment of sparing feelings.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 10/03/2021 11:08

@GottogetaGRC

Yet again ideology over common sense

I don't mind being recorded as being trans.

Personally, there is no chance of me saying my current sex is male.
I don't have an issue with saying that the sex on my birth certificate was recorded as male.

I have been out for 10 years. Had surgery years ago. I could get a GRC but I never have needed one.

Can people understand why people like me would not want to record their current sex as male but I don't have an issue with saying what their recorded sex was or in saying that they are trans - because it is important to know that - as has been pointed out.

@GottogetaGRC, I know you don't identify as being male now, but do you accept that for healthcare purposes your birth sex does matter? There are various illnesses that either only affect one sex, or affect one sex way more than the other, or the symptoms are different between the sexes, e.g. heart attacks. When the NHS is planning services, they need to know how many males there are and how many females, in each age category.

If you fill in the census saying you were registered as Male at birth and then you fill in the optional gender ID question, surely that's the best of all possible worlds for the data, if all or most trans people do similar. That way the NHS and any other government body that needs to know can get a far more accurate idea than they have at the moment of how many trans people there are in each age group, and of each sex, and plan services accordingly.

Clymene · 10/03/2021 11:09

[quote GottogetaGRC]**@GottogetaGRC but your current sex is male. It doesn't matter if you don't care to acknowledge it, your sex is and always will be male. To put anything but male as a tick in a 'sex' box is an untruth

Do you understand how difficult it is to tick that in a box?[/quote]
There are a lot of facts that are emotionally difficult in most people's life. As adults though, we have to deal with them rather than sticking our heads in the sand.

Whatwouldscullydo · 10/03/2021 11:11

Do you understand how difficult it is to tick that in a box?

Feelings are not relevant though. Healthcare fir instance, prostate cancer or ectopic pregnancy do not care about identity. They happen regardless. How can the need for maternity care space or unemployment rates fir particular demographics be identified and rectified if people can tick any box they like.

Its a form. Not a personal attack. Many will hate having to tick the 40 plus box too. But it helps no one to provide inaccurate info

GottogetaGRC · 10/03/2021 11:11

If you fill in the census saying you were registered as Male at birth and then you fill in the optional gender ID question

As I said - if that's the question about registered at birth - then that's not an issue.

DickKerrLadies · 10/03/2021 11:13

IMO this census could provide us with an opportunity to discover the true numbers of trans people in this country. At the moment, we only have GRC numbers and estimates by lobby groups such as Stonewall. Clearly the number is higher than the number of GRC holders but by how much? How many trans people are there in need of support and services?

If trans people without a GRC list their biological sex and put transgender for the gender ID question, we would know how many trans people there are without a GRC - data is good!

Also, the ONS are saying that they are asking the same question they have since 1801 - it's about biological sex. Unless a person holds a GRC their legal sex is their biological sex.

Many people will find aspects of filling in the census difficult. I imagine the householders of 1911 found it difficult to fill in the question about their children who had died. But the ONS felt it was important enough to have accurate data that they asked.

SenecaTrewe · 10/03/2021 11:13

[quote GottogetaGRC]**@GottogetaGRC but your current sex is male. It doesn't matter if you don't care to acknowledge it, your sex is and always will be male. To put anything but male as a tick in a 'sex' box is an untruth

Do you understand how difficult it is to tick that in a box?[/quote]

But it's the truth. Why would you skew statistics?

Graffitiqueen · 10/03/2021 11:13

[quote GottogetaGRC]**@GottogetaGRC but your current sex is male. It doesn't matter if you don't care to acknowledge it, your sex is and always will be male. To put anything but male as a tick in a 'sex' box is an untruth

Do you understand how difficult it is to tick that in a box?[/quote]
I'm sorry your dysphoria is so bad that you would find that difficult. The guidance for the question states that it should be the sex on your birth certificate or GRC it doesn't say anything about "current sex" if that helps.

It really is in your best interest to answer accurately though.

GottogetaGRC · 10/03/2021 11:15

I'm sorry your dysphoria is so bad that you would find that difficult. The guidance for the question states that it should be the sex on your birth certificate or GRC it doesn't say anything about "current sex" if that helps

That does help.

BrumBoo · 10/03/2021 11:17

@GottogetaGRC the question is very simple. What is your sex - you answer male, I answer female. Because that is the truth. It has nothing to do with which of your papers say male and which say female, it won't ever actually change your sex. Your gender is female, mine is non-existent, so I leave the box blank. That is a reflection of belief, not scientific fact. Playing the 'oh well, only in very specific set of circumstances would I tick male as my sex' is just more backdoor self ID and appropriation of a sex that doesn't and will never belong to you.

Sexnotgender · 10/03/2021 11:19

[quote GottogetaGRC]**@GottogetaGRC but your current sex is male. It doesn't matter if you don't care to acknowledge it, your sex is and always will be male. To put anything but male as a tick in a 'sex' box is an untruth

Do you understand how difficult it is to tick that in a box?[/quote]
Unfortunately we all have to do difficult things. The census requires accurate information to inform public spending and forecast need based on that information.

Your feelings aren’t more important.

ErrolTheDragon · 10/03/2021 11:20

YANBU.
The guidance now should give more accurate statistics, reflecting reality. The additional question on gender identity allows for that data to also be gathered, rather than uselessly lumping it all together which benefits no one.

AtLeastPretendToCare · 10/03/2021 11:29

Completely agree that self IDing sex on this is a own goal for the trans community.

Worth noting the full judicial review is next week. Pretty clear to me the ONS were not complying with the law in regards sex definition in the census.

Hopefully this, along with the various other legal cases, will be the beginning of the end for Stonewall Law and their bullying ways.

FamilyOfAliens · 10/03/2021 11:33

I can also imagine how difficult it must be for women who don’t have children and who know they never will to tick a box on a form saying they don’t have children.

The truth is a very painful thing for many people to have to face up to.

MrsFin · 10/03/2021 11:42

It's there an option to not answer the follow up question about gender identity? I don't have a gender identity.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/03/2021 11:46

@GottogetaGRC

If you fill in the census saying you were registered as Male at birth and then you fill in the optional gender ID question

As I said - if that's the question about registered at birth - then that's not an issue.

It does. The guidelines, available online, say that - now!
ErrolTheDragon · 10/03/2021 11:46

@MrsFin

It's there an option to not answer the follow up question about gender identity? I don't have a gender identity.
Yes, it's optional. Like religion.
CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/03/2021 11:47

@MrsFin

It's there an option to not answer the follow up question about gender identity? I don't have a gender identity.
Yes. It is not a mandatory question. Filling it in is entirely optional.
CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/03/2021 13:54

Intersex, or people with DSDs as they are more correctly known, do more to prove the binary nature of human beings than they do some wider variety or sliding scale.

And as many people who are intersex, organisations that represent them have asked for everyone to stop using them to make any claims, it is odd to see it keep appearing. As if nobody elses lived reality or personal opinion matters when there is a TRA point to be made.

GottogetaGRC · 10/03/2021 14:09

People have said that if people fill in biological sex as 'they feel', then that will reduce the numbers of trans people in the statistics.

Surely it's the Gender Identity question that will indicate the number of trans people out there?

If 10% of people say that their gender identity is different to their sex registered at birth, that shows the numbers of trans people.

"Is the gender you identify with the same as your sex registered at birth?"

I will be saying No to that question - because it's true. I don't think that's a hard question for trans people to fill in.

I also can imagine that many other trans people will be saying No to that and recording the gender they identify with.