To be very glad the judge ruled properly on Self ID and sex for the census?

[ItscoldinAlaska]

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/09/guidance-on-sex-question-in-uk-census-must-be-changed-high-court-rules?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0ARobpxFavIo53e2Pu6v4laOlBOGfwuEwkQmjOuG52F04-N6RXK1jsBx4#Echobox=1615318013

I have shared the FB link as the comments are eye opening. According to advisory guidance (before this ruling) the Census was advising that documentation that allows Self ID (e.g. a passport or driving licence) could inform the answer to sex on the census. This was challenged by an organisation that stated it was self ID through the back door. The judge ruled (correctly IMO) to change the wording. The advice states that you should put the assigned sex at birth and the sex you were registered as (on your birth certificate) should be used, a binary choice of F/M.

Later on in the census there is an option to state your gender. AIBU to think that if you are gathering statistics on sex, counting sex accurately is really important to inform policies? To account for how many females and males there are in an area is really important? The comments section has people who are stating that the numbers are so small it doesn't matter? Accuracy matters doesn't it? Or am I missing something? I am a health researcher. If you add skew into it, it leads to a lack of robust data and interrogation? There is an option to state your gender, so why is it trans phobic to give a binary option for sex? (Which is what the comments section debate was. Lots of TERF and Bigot being thrown at people like me, who thought statistical validity is important).

YANBU, it's a fantastic result (shouldn't have required a ruling to begin with but hey ho)

Good point @FamilyOfAliens hopefully not.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g of course that’s the issue. Any sane person can see that accurate data is necessary. Unfortunately feelings are top trumps at the moment and it’s “invalidating” to fill in a sex based question accurately apparently.

@FamilyOfAliens no it is not a compulsory question.

I am trying to work out what I would put in there, if anything. A blank space might be the most eloquent answer!

[quote CuriousaboutSamphire]@FamilyOfAliens no it is not a compulsory question.

I am trying to work out what I would put in there, if anything. A blank space might be the most eloquent answer![/quote]
Or “not applicable”.

@FamilyOfAliens

Because if you ask transpeople what their sex is and what their sex 'assigned' at birth was (or registered at birth), you could get 2 different answers.

I was under the impression that trans people use the term “gender” to describe themselves? Are you saying that trans people would say their biological sex has changed as a result of being trans?

No idea of numbers, but there are lots of vocal trans people on Twitter who do indeed argue that they were coercively assigned a sex at birth and now that they've transitioned they are finally able to live as their correct sex. Green Party Women's Co-Chair, Kathryn Bristow, is planning to say F as this is what KB believes to be true, and therefore legal.

To all trans people, put what you know is right for you on the census, the guidance is not legally binding anyway. I'm putting female, even though I don't have a GRC.

twitter.com/KathrynBristow/status/1369355383710580740?s=20

@FamilyOfAliens

Because if you ask transpeople what their sex is and what their sex 'assigned' at birth was (or registered at birth), you could get 2 different answers.

I was under the impression that trans people use the term “gender” to describe themselves? Are you saying that trans people would say their biological sex has changed as a result of being trans?

My understanding is that transpeople believe they were born as the sex they now are.

So, a Transwoman doesn't believe her biological sex has changed. She has always been a woman and the sex on her birth certificate was originally recorded wrongly. I think

That's why we need clear information regarding what to record in the sex box, otherwise collecting that statistic is meanigless

YANBU, it's fantastic news.

But YABU to use the phrase assigned sex at birth. Sex isn't assigned, it's recorded and that's what the guidance says.

@ItscoldinAlaska

It just baffles me why the ONS, a statistical authority, would even contemplate undermining their statistical validity! Bonkers.

That's when you realise how deeply the lobby groups have inserted themselves, and how much money is behind the TRA agenda. A powerless, oppressed minority they are not.

Or “not applicable”. I wouldn't put that. It implies I think it is applicable to some!

Don't get me wrong, I think it should be recorded for all the obvious, common sense reasons already mentioned. But I don't want to add anything that SW could use to support their agenda!

As great as the result was unfortunately I don't think people will take any notice of it see picture below

That's a shame as they are now doing what they accuse GC women of doing - rendering themselves invisible, denying their own existence!

They are also proving what manyy GC women have been saying for years. There can be no compromise that TRAs will accept as they want validation more than they want anything else! So now they will answer incorrectly and gain lots of validation but will simultaneously destroy the evidence required to improve any and all provisions for trans people!

@FamilyOfAliens

The advice states that you should put the assigned sex at birth

Did they actually use those words? Just that sex isn’t “assigned”, as I think surely everyone knows by now, even if they don’t like to admit it.

Unfortunately, too many people think your sex is based on whatever pieces of paper you own- birth certificate, GRC, passport. What is written on a piece of paper doesn't change your sex if you're trans, that's still your gender but many are absolutely taking the mick (including the ONS trying it on will this bollocks). It needs repeating until it sticks - gender is your choice, sex is not.

It's high time Sex and Gender were defined in law, with it being absolutely clear that no matter how you ID as a personal choice, biological sex cannot be changed. Keep these terms firmly separated, use them in their correct instances - for example, when talking about the wage gap, women being discriminated against in the work place, pregnancy issues and discrimination etc, these are sex equality issues, not gender.

Anyway, it's a great result. Let's hope it sets a precedence for the future.

On the gender question, I ticked 'no' and in the description put 'no gender - bio sex + personality'. It was the only answer that felt right, and its a question about feelings I guess.

@FamilyOfAliens

Because if you ask transpeople what their sex is and what their sex 'assigned' at birth was (or registered at birth), you could get 2 different answers.

I was under the impression that trans people use the term “gender” to describe themselves? Are you saying that trans people would say their biological sex has changed as a result of being trans?

We are not all the same in our thinking. We are not one homogenous group who think that gender is what it's about and gender expression.

gender is your choice, sex is not

There is no choice

@Nimora @FamilyofAliens

Yes, you are both right. I should not gave written 'assigned' I should have written 'Recorded'. Semantic minefield that I struggle to navigate.

In regards to the twitter link and the 'I will self ID anyway' narrative. This completely undermines the 'Trans Women are Women' argument for inclusion then, surely? Because what you are actually doing is skewing statistics, that in the long run, will improve lives for everyone. So, if you let this happen (skewed, unreliable stats) because of your own ego and need to put your needs and feelings above the 'herd' need, who exactly is being exclusionary?

“Accurate data on sex matters. It matters most to women and girls. We need it. If we don’t have good data on sex we can’t monitor inequalities due to sex, and if we can’t measure it we can’t make good policies to remedy it.”

There is no choice Of gender? I had thought that, given the ever increasing numbers listed there was always an individual choice of gender.

Even if it is only in the degree of 'feminine' presentation - say, my TW friend and Grayson Perry. Friend doesn't present as a flamboyant pastiche.

So now they will answer incorrectly and gain lots of validation but will simultaneously destroy the evidence required to improve any and all provisions for trans people

If someone says that their gender is different to that assigned at birth (or basically answers the gender identity question with a 'different') then that helps add to the data about trans people

@GottogetaGRC

So now they will answer incorrectly and gain lots of validation but will simultaneously destroy the evidence required to improve any and all provisions for trans people

If someone says that their gender is different to that assigned at birth (or basically answers the gender identity question with a 'different') then that helps add to the data about trans people

But if, as many are saying across Twitter, they just say they are the sex they want to be because that is their truth?

This was all discussed in the FPFW vs ONS yesterday. The points made about making data opaque are compelling for all people! Statisticians need real data!

I'll try that again!!

If someone says that their gender is different to that assigned at birth (or basically answers the gender identity question with a 'different') then that helps add to the data about trans people Yes, obviously! But that means they have to answer the Sex question in line with law, social expectations, reality. The point was that the ONS changed guidance* to say that any answer could be given if there was a piece of paper in that person's name with that sex on it, with no recourse to sex as recorded at birth! That would make any such cross referencing of data impossible, to the detriment of all trans people.

*After saying they would not, at short notice etc.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

I get the sense that some people don't understand that the census is all about gathering data for use by the government, councils etc. An individual return is confidential for a century after the census date. It's not an opportunity to tell the world 'I identify as ...' in any way that is linked to your own name. If the questions aren't answered correctly, the data becomes a lot less useful.

Made up example: Joe is male, and his birth certificate says M. When Joe is 45, he comes out as trans and henceforth is called Jo. Jo doesn't get a GRC, as can't see the point. Jo has hormone treatment, but no sexual reassignment surgery, as Jo has some heart problems that make it risky to have major surgery for anything except a life-threatening emergency.

Jo should click M on the census. There's an optional question on gender identity. If Jo feels comfortable answering that, that's the place to inform the government about Jo's trans status.

The data from the census helps the NHS plan what services might be needed in future. If lots and lots of Jos ticked F, not M, the NHS may conclude that there are more middle-aged and older women around than they thought and fewer men of that age. So they up the number of clinics and specialist HCPs dealing with breast cancer, ovarian cancer, menopause etc etc. Fewer services for older males, e.g. dealing with prostate cancer.

This is a problem for Jo, who isn't at risk of breast or ovarian cancer. If Jo gets a sex-specific cancer in old age, it's likely to be prostate cancer.

this this this and this again!

you cannot change your biological sex and the government, local authorities and the NHs need to plan for services that are based in biology e.g. prostate or cervical screening.

There is also a need to know about the need for more services for trans people

inaccurate data helps absolutely no one.

If someone answers incorrectly the answer about sex recorded at birth they undermine statistical validity and truth, which undermines the research process.

Today I am writing a report on maternal mental health in a BAME population, for the trust that serves that community. To inform and advise re provision of ante and perinatal mental health interventions in 2025-30. There is significant stigma attached to diagnosis of a mental health condition in a particular demographic and families fight against it (post peural psychosis is explained as something else and treatment is avoided). If they were able to self ID as not having the illness, the data I have just pulled from SystmOne would be skewed and I would not have confidence in my statistical rigour and if I didn't have that my report and recommendations would be meaningless. As researchers we can't undermine this. It is too important.

It's quite a bizarre strategy being adopted by Bristow et al. The trans community regularly complain about lack of access to trans specific healthcare and other services. They now have an opportunity to tell government how many of them there are so that they can get the services needed and they're pissing it up the wall.

@CuriousaboutSamphire is there another thread about this? Sorry, I missed it.