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AIBU?

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Original poster

To be very glad the judge ruled properly on Self ID and sex for the census?

145 replies

ItscoldinAlaska · 10/03/2021 07:32

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/mar/09/guidance-on-sex-question-in-uk-census-must-be-changed-high-court-rules?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0ARobpxFavIo53e2Pu6v4laOlBOGfwuEwkQmjOuG52F04-N6RXK1jsBx4#Echobox=1615318013

I have shared the FB link as the comments are eye opening. According to advisory guidance (before this ruling) the Census was advising that documentation that allows Self ID (e.g. a passport or driving licence) could inform the answer to sex on the census. This was challenged by an organisation that stated it was self ID through the back door. The judge ruled (correctly IMO) to change the wording. The advice states that you should put the assigned sex at birth and the sex you were registered as (on your birth certificate) should be used, a binary choice of F/M.

Later on in the census there is an option to state your gender. AIBU to think that if you are gathering statistics on sex, counting sex accurately is really important to inform policies? To account for how many females and males there are in an area is really important? The comments section has people who are stating that the numbers are so small it doesn't matter? Accuracy matters doesn't it? Or am I missing something? I am a health researcher. If you add skew into it, it leads to a lack of robust data and interrogation? There is an option to state your gender, so why is it trans phobic to give a binary option for sex? (Which is what the comments section debate was. Lots of TERF and Bigot being thrown at people like me, who thought statistical validity is important).

OP posts:
gamerchick · 10/03/2021 09:36

@FamilyOfAliens

The advice states that you should put the assigned sex at birth

Did they actually use those words? Just that sex isn’t “assigned”, as I think surely everyone knows by now, even if they don’t like to admit it.

No it doesn't, it just asks what your sex is. With a bit after saying your gender identity will be asked later on.
LizzieSiddal · 10/03/2021 09:37

It just baffles me why the ONS, a statistical authority, would even contemplate undermining their statistical validity! Bonkers.

They know it's bonkers but if they admit it's bonkers, their whole mantra of TWAW is lost.
Stonewall and others believe that anyone can be any sex, sex is a spectrum, sex is 'assigned' at birth and no one should EVER contest this. They do not seem to care that correct figures are collected so money can be allocated to Trans services.

TottiePlantagenet · 10/03/2021 09:45

YANBU facts and sex matter, filling the census according to what you want to be (vs what you are) serves no purpose other than shooting yourself in the foot when it comes to be counted and represented.

FamilyOfAliens · 10/03/2021 09:48

We are not all the same in our thinking. We are not one homogenous group who think that gender is what it's about and gender expression.

And yet this generalisation about trans people that I was referring to was something you yourself posted:

Because if you ask transpeople what their sex is and what their sex 'assigned' at birth was (or registered at birth), you could get 2 different answers.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/03/2021 09:52

[quote ItscoldinAlaska]@CuriousaboutSamphire is there another thread about this? Sorry, I missed it.[/quote]
There is an ongoing ne catching 3 different cases, in Feminist Chat. It's almost full, cross references Glinner and Harry the Owl...

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4186733-Tuesday-9th-March-could-be-a-big-day?pg=1

Nith · 10/03/2021 09:52

The comments section has people who are stating that the numbers are so small it doesn't matter? Accuracy matters doesn't it?

I'm quite sure that they build in an assumption of inaccuracy, not least because it's very hard to check on the accuracy of answers for 66 million people. In previous censuses, people have put "Jedi" down for their religion without any serious consequences for them or the UK as a whole.

Di11y · 10/03/2021 09:56

Can you imagine if all trans just entered their preferred gender as their birth sex. Oh look there's not a single trans person in the uk. Don't need any services or support for them then.

BringMeTea · 10/03/2021 09:58

Very pleased about this.

ConstanceGracy · 10/03/2021 09:58

Great result .

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/03/2021 10:00

I'm quite sure that they build in an assumption of inaccuracy, not least because it's very hard to check on the accuracy of answers for 66 million people. In previous censuses, people have put "Jedi" down for their religion without any serious consequences for them or the UK as a whole. They are not mandatory questions though. There are few of those, sex is one, and they are the only ones you have to answer legally, honestly as they are used for all sorts of provision of services. The others are gathering data for comparative studies.

ProfessorPootle · 10/03/2021 10:00

Sex is a vital statistic. As the judge rightly said, ‘there is no dispute that sex is an important demographic variable’. This is what women have been fighting to get acknowledged, it is important to everyone but incredibly so to women and girls. Sex is not gender identity.

TRAs conflate sex with gender as they want to be ‘women’ rather than ‘trans women’ in law so they can access women’s single sex spaces, sports and services without question. They’re men with a trans ID, nothing to do with the sex class of women and they shouldn’t be able to change sex based provision into mixed sex versions for their benefit to the detriment of all women. Including men excludes women. They know this but they don’t care, women are only here to support and reinforce their ‘womanly’ identities. I’m no ones support animal.

The gender identity question is not compulsory so ignore it if you don’t have a gender identity.

Clymene · 10/03/2021 10:02

@Di11y

Can you imagine if all trans just entered their preferred gender as their birth sex. Oh look there's not a single trans person in the uk. Don't need any services or support for them then.
Saying that your religion is Jedi has no impact on public spending. Saying that your sex is other than it is could very well do.
WendyTestaburger · 10/03/2021 10:05

This is an instance where what is best for women is also best for trans people. Accurate data to be used for analysis and future planning of services. An outcome which benefits the health of all.

That some trans rights activists have framed it as otherwise or are boasting that people have already filed inaccurate data just highlights how far the prevailing ideology has strayed from being concerned with benefitting trans people.

TableFlowerss · 10/03/2021 10:15

I think someone made a good point regarding the healthcare setting. I’m all for being inclusive etc but there are some circumstances when the sex within a healthcare setting does matter.

A man can’t get ovarian/ cervical cancer, in the same way a woman can’t get prostate cancer. So if someone attended their GP with certain symptoms, certain things can be ruled out purely based on knowing someone’s birth sex.

It would make the lives of the GP much easier to know the biology within the presented body.

In most of areas of life it shouldn’t matter as long as the individual is happy.

MrsWooster · 10/03/2021 10:24

Very important point that Q27, the gender question, is voluntary: if you are gender critical, or just ambivalent about identifying with specific stereotypes leave it blank as any comment will, algorithmically speaking, reinforce the idea that gender identity is something that a majority of people have.

GCAcademic · 10/03/2021 10:28

@Summerhillsquare

It's a good result, but I don't know how I can answer the question on gender identity. I don't feel I have one, nor that the performance of sex stereotypes is relevant.
That question is optional. You can skip past it.
GCAcademic · 10/03/2021 10:32

@GottogetaGRC

So now they will answer incorrectly and gain lots of validation but will simultaneously destroy the evidence required to improve any and all provisions for trans people

If someone says that their gender is different to that assigned at birth (or basically answers the gender identity question with a 'different') then that helps add to the data about trans people

But the activists want to be able to record their sex as consistent with their gender. Thus obliterating data about trans people, as well as skewing data about biological sex.
GottogetaGRC · 10/03/2021 10:36

@FamilyOfAliens

We are not all the same in our thinking. We are not one homogenous group who think that gender is what it's about and gender expression.

And yet this generalisation about trans people that I was referring to was something you yourself posted:

Because if you ask transpeople what their sex is and what their sex 'assigned' at birth was (or registered at birth), you could get 2 different answers.

You read the word 'could'

Which is not a generalisation.

FamilyOfAliens · 10/03/2021 10:45

You read the word 'could'

Which is not a generalisation.

If it’s not a generalisation about trans people, why say it about trans people and not about anyone else?

Graffitiqueen · 10/03/2021 10:48

I don't understand why trans people would not want accurate data to be recorded. I thought they wanted visibility and extra resources for their healthcare. if you can't distinguish them from the rest of the population how can that help them plan resources?

Yet again ideology over common sense.

Dannydevitoiloveyourart · 10/03/2021 10:53

@FamilyOfAliens

The advice states that you should put the assigned sex at birth

Did they actually use those words? Just that sex isn’t “assigned”, as I think surely everyone knows by now, even if they don’t like to admit it.

It is if you’re intersex or have other conditions. Sex isn’t quite as binary as many on mumsnet seem to insist.

As a female at birth I don’t mind use of the term “assigned” sex since it is simply referring to medical categorisation.

SchrodingersImmigrant · 10/03/2021 10:54

This census will be useless. Have you zeen what people put on? Just making up crap.
I would not want to be someone who needs to work with that data in future years🙄

GottogetaGRC · 10/03/2021 10:55

Yet again ideology over common sense

I don't mind being recorded as being trans.

Personally, there is no chance of me saying my current sex is male.
I don't have an issue with saying that the sex on my birth certificate was recorded as male.

I have been out for 10 years. Had surgery years ago. I could get a GRC but I never have needed one.

Can people understand why people like me would not want to record their current sex as male but I don't have an issue with saying what their recorded sex was or in saying that they are trans - because it is important to know that - as has been pointed out.

Graffitiqueen · 10/03/2021 10:56

@Dannydevitoiloveyourart if sex is not binary can you name the 3rd (or more) sex (es) please?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 10/03/2021 10:56

@CuriousaboutSamphire

That's a shame as they are now doing what they accuse GC women of doing - rendering themselves invisible, denying their own existence!

They are also proving what manyy GC women have been saying for years. There can be no compromise that TRAs will accept as they want validation more than they want anything else! So now they will answer incorrectly and gain lots of validation but will simultaneously destroy the evidence required to improve any and all provisions for trans people!

Nailed it.