Universal Basic Income means there is no point working hard

[Instamaticgreenery]

A conversation with my boyfriend this morning.

He's currently unemployed. He seems slightly reluctant to look for work and this was one of the reasons he gave. He said he'll earn the same as everyone else anyway when this comes in, and that everyone will earn the same, be it a doctor or a shop assistant, and we're living in modern slavery. Or we will be soon, as that's the way the world is going.

Could anyone enlighten me as to what he is talking about?!

He thinks that a universal income means communism and all money is shared equally. Actually it means everyone has a basic amount to live on (from government) but then they will be paid more on top dependant on their job (from employer).

Also, How can he be pro trump? Pro trump hated benefits and socialism which your Bf lives off of. Trump is to all appearances for the 'salt of the Earth' worker types.

@Justanotherlurker thank you. I'm not really asking here for answers to the worlds big political questions, although my original question regarding UBI has been answered by this thread. It was also answered by researching UBI but I wanted opinions from others if it did mean 'modern slavery'.

It's the 'do your own research' thing that gets me. That's something my bf says a lot. He 'does his own research' by watching alternative media. If I were to do my own research by, for example, reading the guardian and government websites, then he'd tell me I'm being lied to. I could come back and tell him his 'research' is lies and mine isn't. It's an argument that nobody could win, he would have his 'evidence' and I would have mine.

I don't actually argue any points with him. But I know other people do, and he tells me he can't believe the stupidity of these educated people.

I am not against it as I would get the same amount from the state as someone who is perhaps reluctant to work and of course those who cannot work plus I could keep my earnings after tax.

The only big issue is how much it should be. I would like it to be so low you could only rent a property in cities such as London if you shared with several families so that it was difficult and therefore either ensured you kmoved to much cheaper areas or shared or got work or shared with people in work.

The biggest issue is always if we could afford it. It could replace child benefits but not be given to children, old age pension and everything else including UC and housing benefit and pension credit.

@Instamaticgreenery if you stay you will end up back here in few years, financially and emotinally broken.
You know that, don't you. He is just latching onto that conspiracy theories because it's an wxcuse for his lifestyle. Simple as that🤷🏻

Also, I think that comparing having to work to make living to modern slavery is quite offensive. (I finally dound something what actually made me say this)

No one is taking my passport off me, beats me, threatens my family if I leave and don't pay back the debt I owe them for "getting the job" on apple farm. I am not being sold in a brothel either. I can go outside to the shops without someone coming with. I am not afraid to report my employer if they do illegal shit towards me, because I wasn't told that I will surely go to prison for x and y if I ever speak to authorities and that my family might get a visit... I am not given addictive drugs just so I end up more dependent on the "employer".

That's modern slavery. Also I get paid, not that I get a tenner a week for 70 hours and the rest goes on the "getting the job" fee.

What's the difference between UBI and UC? Surely they both either top up income or pay you if you aren't working. UBI is probably fairer if it means those who aren't entitled to benefits get something back from the tax they pay.

There have always been people like this.

Just leave him to it. Move on.

Oh god op, I couldn't respect anyone this ridiculous

Once again I am wondering WHY do women choose men who are obvious losers.

How can the OP look at a future with this man and think it is a good idea to keep dating him? How?

How can the OP look at a future with this man and think it is a good idea to keep dating him? How

I don't know, they seem fairly well suited to me. Neither has a clue what is normal or whats going on in the world.

He sounds like a lazy idiot.

If you're serious about not knowing what to believe, I find the general rule of thumb is to consider what is actually likely, from a practical point of view. If the theory is based on what "they" are going to do you need to ask who is "they", how will they do this thing, and is it really likely that they could? For example in the UK "they" is the Conservative government and they obviously aren't going to implement UBI because giving everyone free money is totally against everything they stand for.

Many other conspiracy theories fall apart as soon as you think about what your average government employee is actually likely to pull off during their working day. I work in local government and I promise you I do not have the time, energy or inclination to coordinate a conspiracy to sell babies for pizza or whatever that whole thing was about.

You could also consider thinking about politics from a moral perspective. Do you think it's ok, morally, for the police to kill people in the street for suspected low level credit card fraud? Because Trump's government did. DH and I don't always agree on politics but actual state-supported murder is a step too far surely?

Would UBI reflect local prices? If it paid for families to be able to afford adequate housing in London or Edinburgh then the equivalent amount given in an ex mining town in Lanarkshire would amount to a luxury lifestyle.

@MorrisZapp I think that’s exactly where they are struggling with the concept, that London is such an outlier. UBI is supposed to replace all other welfare isn’t it, but I don’t think it’s intended to vary regionally... however to cover housing costs in London for those who need it would require a prohibitively high amount... I’m not sure if they’ve addressed that issue yet?

@catspider

What's the difference between UBI and UC? Surely they both either top up income or pay you if you aren't working. UBI is probably fairer if it means those who aren't entitled to benefits get something back from the tax they pay.

@catspider

If you receive universal credit, and you're offered 1 month work in Royal Mail before Christmas, it's not viable to take the job if it means coming off UC, working for just a month, and then re-applying for UC and having to wait at least 5 weeks for it to recommence. People on v low incomes can't afford to wait 5 weeks, so they don't take the Royal Mail job

www.cas.org.uk/news/universal-credit-5-week-wait-leads-people-debt-stress-foodbanks-and-ill-health

With universal basic income, you receive your monthly payment of £X, and then you're at liberty to take the Royal Mail job for a month to earn a bit extra

For me, the flexibility of UBI is one of the attractions. And it would avoid issues of fraud (because everyone gets it, regardless of their personal circs)

I agree with @Xenia that UBI should be set at quite a low level, to fund the necessities of a basic lifestyle

Yes Morris I think the variation in cost of housing is the key practical problem in fully implementing UBI here in a form which would give you enough to live on on its own. But even an incomplete form would enable people to be more flexible.

This is worth a watch

It’s what it says, a “basic” income. No one is going to be living a life of luxury on it and will need to work too if they want to do anything other than get by. If it ever becomes policy (which I doubt).

@DenisetheMenace

It’s what it says, a “basic” income. No one is going to be living a life of luxury on it and will need to work too if they want to do anything other than get by. If it ever becomes policy (which I doubt).

As long as experts in the field would be the ones to define 'basic' some people would be happy to get workhouses back in Britain and I'm sure theyd have me in an asylum in no time to save themselves the pittance they give me to try to survive on, so the definition of basic is life or death

Pro Trump? So he supports fascism?

Time for a new boyfriend

Pro-Trump??? Surely shared values are the basis of a successful relationship?

You do raise a good point about HOW do you do your own research..

If you werent taught either in school or by your parents, how to evaluate a source of information and decide whether that source is biased, credible, useful etc... then I can see how that is difficult.

These days anyone can post something online and pretend to be credible, meaning the rest of us do have to work harder to figure out whats real, whats fiction, whats horribly biased bullshit.

I look at who wrote it - if it doesn't say... that's going to the bottom of the credibility list.

If it says but I can't find out who that person is, what their level of education is, what their qualifications are - again that might well drop them down the credibility list.

If I can find out who it is, and what their level of education and expertise is (and I might have to wander off on a side-track to discover if their qualification is actually worthwhile, there are many that aren't), then I have a bit of a clue as to where they are coming from and what knowledge and understanding they are basing their opinion on.

It isn't actually easy, you need a critical mind and a good level of education and general world knowledge to evaluate some of the stuff that is written.

I have to explain this frequently in my own work as a dog trainer - people watch folk on tv, the man on tv claims to have a qualification that makes him a Master Dog Trainer, so he must be an expert, right?

But if I go and look up the organisation that awards a 'Master Dog Trainer' qualification, I find it is regulated entirely by itself, to gain that qualification one simply needs to pay a fee and self-certify that one has the skills and experience needed and hey presto... you too can have a Master Dog Trainer qualification..

So being on tv, purporting to be an expert and holding a fancy sounding qualification turn out actually to all be meaningless when it comes to evaluating the quality of that persons knowledge!

It gets even harder to evaluate sources when you are wedded to an idea and take it personally if that idea or concept is challenged by someone else - that shuts you down and stops you listening to others, and if you can't listen to and evaluate others opinions and ideas... you won't challenge your own... and so the cycle continues!

The Monsters Inc argument for UBI

The video is made by Scott Santens. Google him to find out more about UBI.

And then there are the words of Prof Guy Standing on this video by Massive Attack.

He sounds very confused. And also an idiot.

I'm less concerned with his views than with the idea that someone could find this man attractive. Are you planning to stay with him, @Instamaticgreenery?