Universal Basic Income means there is no point working hard

[Instamaticgreenery]

A conversation with my boyfriend this morning.

He's currently unemployed. He seems slightly reluctant to look for work and this was one of the reasons he gave. He said he'll earn the same as everyone else anyway when this comes in, and that everyone will earn the same, be it a doctor or a shop assistant, and we're living in modern slavery. Or we will be soon, as that's the way the world is going.

Could anyone enlighten me as to what he is talking about?!

It's good you're able to see the humour in this now. I hope I don't see a thread from you on the Relationship's board in a few years from now when you've two small children by him and he's still unemployed with no involvement in family life.

Why exactly does he have no job? Was he laid off due to the pandemic OP.

I like the idea of universal basic income. Pay people the bare minimum required for a basic life, and they're at liberty to take additional / higher paid work to top it up. Current benefits system is expensive, unwieldy, inflexible and causes problems eg if on universal credit, it's not worth taking a job for a month or so, because it would mess up your benefit entitlement and take time to submit a new claim

This study found that UBI didn't really improve the economy but increased well being

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/07/finnish-basic-income-pilot-improved-wellbeing-study-finds-coronavirus

Does your bf often put tin foil on his head?

Some sort of basic income has been trialled. I think it hasn't resulted in laziness in those countries that tried it. More entrepreneurship I believe (I guess if you could cover the absolute essentials what do you WANT to do becomes a drove to earn).

@LunaHeather I tgink the whole point of UBI is that it's not means tested. It's to replace means tested benefits with a simpler system ie everyone gets it

My under if UBI is that it isn't means tested, but that high earners (possibly medium earners) end up paying it back it tax. Which is a different route to the same end.

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/cambridge-quarterly-of-healthcare-ethics/article/emergency-basic-income-during-the-pandemic/396D4A7DA6356A9FEA963E07F351FB06

That's not what universal basic income is and, despite many wishing it would be introduced in the UK, I doubt it ever will be.

If you want to find out more about it, there's a great book that discusses UBI and related issues called, 'The Nordic Theory of Everything: In search of a better life" by Anu Partanen.

universal basic income was mooted to be around £100 a week max without any need to sign on or look for work, however there is nothing to stop anyone carrying on working if they want more than £400 a month
I remember reading somewhere an (academic) debate on this topic and I think the "appropriate" amount that everyone settled on was somewhere around £1K / month per adult in the household (I don't remember the exact number or the interval, it was something like £900 - £1100, but can't vouch for that).

Stupidity is a really unattractive trait for me. I dont expect my partners or anyone to fully agree with me on every topic, but conspiracy theories are just the pits (after intangible beliefs).

I mean if it suits you, @Instamaticgreenery then fair enough but I'd find it extremely waring, and very embarrassing around other people.

[quote notanothertakeaway]@LunaHeather I tgink the whole point of UBI is that it's not means tested. It's to replace means tested benefits with a simpler system ie everyone gets it[/quote]
It just seems odd that a billionaire would get it too IYSWIM.

@forinborin

universal basic income was mooted to be around £100 a week max without any need to sign on or look for work, however there is nothing to stop anyone carrying on working if they want more than £400 a month I remember reading somewhere an (academic) debate on this topic and I think the "appropriate" amount that everyone settled on was somewhere around £1K / month per adult in the household (I don't remember the exact number or the interval, it was something like £900 - £1100, but can't vouch for that).

That's too good to be true!

basicincometoday.com/four-years-into-the-12-year-ubi-experiment-in-kenya-lives-are-transformed/

@Instamaticgreenery

A conversation with my boyfriend this morning.

He's currently unemployed. He seems slightly reluctant to look for work and this was one of the reasons he gave. He said he'll earn the same as everyone else anyway when this comes in, and that everyone will earn the same, be it a doctor or a shop assistant, and we're living in modern slavery. Or we will be soon, as that's the way the world is going.

Could anyone enlighten me as to what he is talking about?!

Okay so quite a lot to unpack here and want to give a balanced perspective. For the record I think UBI is a fantastic idea!

The basic premise is that everyone will get a living wage (Say £16K a year) regardless of employment status. A social foundation for all.

There are several reasons why UBI is a popular talking point at the moment:

Labour is (and always has been) taxed, when you go to work a percentage of your labour is taken by the government. We are moving towards a world with more automation and a reduction in low skilled jobs (Even high skilled roles such as pilots or doctors are likely to be automated in the future). This is already a driving factory in wealth disparity. One way to combat this is to tax automated labour and re-distribute the wealth to everyone.

The poverty cycle is driven by many people being caught in debt. It's nearly impossible to improve your life if your just making ends meet. UBI would provide an income floor so that everyone has a chance to better themselves.

Now onto what he said.

It sounds like he has looked into Marxism/Socialism and UBI. He is pulling together talking points which don't form a cohesive argument.

Doctors and shop assistants will not be paid the same, this is entirely removed from UBI. He is talking about an extreme form of Socialism which even the furthest left regimes don't follow.

Modern slavery is a stretch, I can understand the frustration of living in a world post feudalism. Essentially a great way to coerce labour from people is to own land and offer a place to live and food in return for labour (in a modern sense we have the debt trap). Before then land wasn't always owned and you could live off the land. Having said that society today is far better for it and before feudalism labour was coerced by far less subtle means (such as straight up slavery).

UBI is not something which I believe will be seen in any major society for the next several decades (if ever)

He is trying to justify his lack of work ethic with abstract points.

Regardless of his opinions it doesn't change the fact that his view of the future is irrelevant to the world we live in. Honestly it sounds like he is lost and needs to decide if he wants to check out of modern society and live an alternative lifestyle away from money or if he is suffering from depression and should seek mental health help.

Aside from the financial benefit of actually having a job, has he no self respect, ambition or interest in growing as a human bring? Say there was some magic source of money so basic needs are covered. I bet most people will still find they need to get out there and be a positive contributor to society.

@Love51

My under if UBI is that it isn't means tested, but that high earners (possibly medium earners) end up paying it back it tax. Which is a different route to the same end.

I think a realistic country-wide implementation of it would involve something like a public register of claimants, so that a lot of people on higher incomes would refuse to claim it from reputational considerations.

What crap. He is trying to justify being lazy and unemployed.
Self respect, trying to work to achieve something, contributing to society, these are all reasons to work.
He can sit on his bum at home but I wouldn't be going out with a man like that.

[quote KeflavikAirport]basicincometoday.com/four-years-into-the-12-year-ubi-experiment-in-kenya-lives-are-transformed/[/quote]
A pointless comparison. I've been to Kenya. Let's just say that their society and standard of living among the general population is not necessarily on a par with the UK.

@LunaHeather
That's too good to be true!

That's probably why I can't seem to find a link now, I think I might have imagined it ... was a couple of years ago, but I for some reason remember the number as the meeting point between being economically plausible while meeting the key needs too.

As others have said it's a concept of guaranteeing a minimum income to everyone .

Arguments against it are that it will cause inflation and dampen economic due to a reduction in productivity

Arguments for are the opposite to be honest lol - more money to spend in the economy, more time to train for better jobs.

However UBI isn't on the radar at all, not even a little bit .... so if he is waiting for that it will probably be a long time coming if at all.

What job was he doing before ?

Eh? Someone said the results if experiments so far weren’t great. I was just posting evidence of an (ongoing) case that does seem to be going well.

“ Although in reality I think it would be means tested.”

It doesn’t have to be, you simply increase the tax rates so those earning above an amount will pay more tax, so be no better off.

It’s a clever idea, would save loads in administration of benefits and be much fairer. I’d be in favour.

But this is coming. Because the robots are coming. Whether you like it or not.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow very good point