Who pays care home fees for your PIL/DP?

[Brightandlight]

DH and I have been discussing plans for the coming tax year (he’s an accountant, so a forward planner). I mentioned our plans once school fees are paid soon etc and he countered with “well, we’ll probably have care home fees then”. He’s means for his mother!!

I’m a bit astonished, as I’ve never thought about paying for anyone’s elderly care. My own DP still run their own business despite being well past retirement age. They could pay for their own nursing care if needed.

How do residential care home fees work for your PIL or DM/DF?

MIL’s house is worth approx £300k, which would cover about 5 years of private residential care. Once that’s spent, who covers the fees then? She doesn’t have much in the way of savings/pension etc.

I get on fine with MIL. But we also don’t have the kind of relationship where she’d move in with us or we’d provide physical care ourself. Actually she lives 3 hours away, so it’s not practical to support carers in her house.

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER
I did, I looked after my great grandmother for nearly 4 years when I was a high school / uni student, for the last couple of months she had to go to residential care as she became simply dangerous to herself and people around her. Well yes, it is not a fun park ride, surely.

@Maldives2006
Let's agree to disagree. By the way, I never said anything about care homes being the evil option. I said that I personally consider it my own responsibility (financial as well as emotional) to make the last years of seniors in my family as comfortable as possible, to the same extent as I am responsible that my children are fed, clothed and vaguely educated. That might or might not include outsourcing and external help, depending on the situation, resources and what's best, but it is still my problem to manage.

Does your MIL even expect you to pay for her care or is your husband just assuming?

I've been told under no circumstances should I use my own money to pay for my mother's care if she ends up needing it when she's older. In her eyes, she could've saved more to go towards it if she'd saved every penny, but she wanted holidays and nice things so she spent some of her money on those instead. So why would it be fair for her to expect me to give those things up to afford paying for her care?

If you were a school or university student at the same time, then presumably it wasn’t the 24/7 care I was talking about, @forinborin.

By a certain stage our relatives could not be safely left alone even for very short periods - it was like leaving a toddler on the loose, you simply didn’t know what they might do - try to cook something, forget it and start a house fire (my DM once did this when she wasn’t even that bad), wander off and get lost, lock themselves out....

Add to that being up and down half the night, banging and shouting and demanding to go out at 3 am (my FiL) and perhaps you will have some inkling of what I mean.

And when did you fit in your studying? I was working from home when FiL was staying with us - or rather trying to, when he was endlessly pacing up and down and asking the same question over and over and over - I once counted 35 times in one hour.

Luckily neither of my parents needed to have care before their died, but my grandmother did and my parents paid for it.

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER

If you were a school or university student at the same time, then presumably it wasn’t the 24/7 care I was talking about, *@forinborin*.

By a certain stage our relatives could not be safely left alone even for very short periods - it was like leaving a toddler on the loose, you simply didn’t know what they might do - try to cook something, forget it and start a house fire (my DM once did this when she wasn’t even that bad), wander off and get lost, lock themselves out....

Add to that being up and down half the night, banging and shouting and demanding to go out at 3 am (my FiL) and perhaps you will have some inkling of what I mean.

And when did you fit in your studying? I was working from home when FiL was staying with us - or rather trying to, when he was endlessly pacing up and down and asking the same question over and over and over - I once counted 35 times in one hour.

School and university were just a couple of hours a day, and of course there was other help too - a neighbour was always on high alert, there was a visiting nurse who helped with some daily duties, and my parents and grandparents were not too far and often helped, of course - I just had more free time and was the most physically able, so did the majority of routine care.

I don't think I have ever said that I expect everyone to provide 24/7 care to aging relatives singlehandedly, I am not sure why people read that. Never mind that those relatives actually could have a preference too about how they want to spend their last years, at home or in a home. I just can't quite understand the position of "it's not my problem, they are dumb for not saving enough, I will protect my money". I fully understand and sympathise in case of toxic, abusive no-contact families, but otherwise... I am probably just not enlightened enough. Having said that, I don't know the realities of the UK care sector - back home high quality residential care for my grandparents until very recently was only around £2K / month + medical bills, and of course everyone from the family from all over the world chipped in for that and it lightened the load for everyone.

My mother pisses money away left right and centre (on herself). Luxury holidays, treats etc. She was physically and psychologically abusive to us and made our adolescent years a misery. We’ve tried to get her to realise she is getting older and to plan, but to no avail.

We have already agreed between us siblings that her care is down to her to fund. We feel no sense of guilt whatsoever. It’s bad enough that she gave us a miserable home life growing up; we will not watch her fritter her money away and then step in when it runs out.

When both MIL and FIL had to move to a care home (specialist care needed), we had PoA and decided to sell their house and invest the proceeds plus their savings. With their State pensions, one Civil Service pension, and the interest from investments (plus a top up from us) this paid the fees and kept their capital intact. We are both only children and have no children of our own. The care home was fab, and their quality of life for the last several years of their lives was very good. An unusual approach, but it worked for us.

I have never heard of children paying for their parents’ care needs. When we were 50s and 60s, no one I know paid for their parents’s care. Now we are all in our 70s and 80s, none of my family and friends expect our children to pay. One of two things happen - the house is sold and when that is gone, the LA takes over, or, if no assets/council tenant, the LA pays from the start.

Definitely look for a home that is willing to keep them and have LA money once their savings run out. They are usually the more family oriented caring ones anyway.

@notthe1Parrot

I have never heard of children paying for their parents’ care needs. When we were 50s and 60s, no one I know paid for their parents’s care. Now we are all in our 70s and 80s, none of my family and friends expect our children to pay. One of two things happen - the house is sold and when that is gone, the LA takes over, or, if no assets/council tenant, the LA pays from the start.

When the LA takes over, they pay a lower rate than the self-funder was paying. That's when some care home owners will come after the family for a top up fee.

That's what happened to us. My brother was the one who took on all the work of finding my mum a nursing home, as she had her stroke just after my husband was diagnosed with terminal cancer and I lived two hours away.

Six years later, when her money ran out and the LA took over, the care home owners sent my brother a bill for the first months' top up. He was stunned. He lives payday to payday, and was really worried. He called them and they claimed that when DM had gone into their care, he'd signed something agreeing to be responsible for any shortfall. They were totally adamant that he was responsible.

It was actually a load of bollocks. We managed to find out that they couldn't ask for this, and oddly enough they never managed to furnish us with this thing they claimed he signed. Eventually they gave up.

But I wonder how many people have paid up, because the wording is deliberately aimed at giving the relatives the impression that they have no choice but to pay.

Oh, and it was BUPA, so if you ahve anyone in one of their care homes, be warned. Not a posh home, btw. BUPA care homes aren't like BUPA hospitals. Hers was very basic with absolutely no luxuries.

@Maldives2006

@forinborin

Do you think people in care homes are there because their families don’t care or love them. This is real life not an episode of Eastenders with the “Family comes first” ?

Geriatric care is exhausting, hard, back breaking and not given the thought it deserves. If you’re not trained in caring and nursing an older person you shouldn’t be doing it. Also taking into account a person is likely going to be in their 80’s when needing care. Meaning their children are likely to be in their 50’s at least with daily bills to pay and children to support.

From what I can see Forin was saying in some cultures, care homes wouldn't be considered. I understand that because I'm from one of those cultures, where it would be frowned upon if you put your parents in a care home and it's just not part of our culture even though we live in the UK.

I lost my DM recently who looked after DF. My dad cannot live independently, but I/we would never in a million years have him in a care home. My siblings and I see it as our responsibility. I would feel bad putting him in a home.

You don't need training to look after an elderly person....If they're very ill and needed expert medical care that couldn't be provided at home..then maybe so, but in my culture we'd still look after a parent with dementia or normal old age ailments...or manageable medical conditions.

From what I can see Forin was saying in some cultures, care homes wouldn't be considered. I understand that because I'm from one of those cultures, where it would be frowned upon if you put your parents in a care home and it's just not part of our culture even though we live in the UK.
No, I wasn't necessarily against the care homes as such. Sometimes it is the best solution - in cases of advanced dementia with near-full personality destruction, for example, or physical / medical needs that far outstrip what can be provided at home. I was just feeling a cultural shock that people think that their own elderly parents are not their problem to solve and let the wider society carry them - because for me it is "my problem" to the same extent as my children are "my problem".

Haven’t RTWT but my late MIL went into a care home with dementia as a self funder. We deliberately chose a home run by a charity which gave a pledge that if the resident’s own funds ran out down to the £23k savings limit, then the resident could remain at the home for the remainder of their life, with LA funding and the charity absorbing the extra costs. I know for a fact that the LA funding did not cover the £1300 pw cost! We just had to demonstrate that she had three years funding available which she had as her home was being sold. Unfortunately she died after 6 months but it was reassuring that she did not face having to potentially move homes as she had dementia and that would’ve been very distressing for her.

Is a granny annexe an option? This is what we’re doing for my mum. It’s not the best but she’s got no money and would rather die than ever go into a nursing home, even less so one that she couldn’t choose herself. I know it would mean your MIL would have to move but needs must.

@forinborin

I understand your point. I agree that a home is a better solution where there are advanced medical needs.

All these people saying they would/did look after their elderly relatives themselves, well not all elderly relatives have manageable needs...

My mum was adamant that she would stay in her house and buy in care as needed, but she got to the point where she kept falling, and lying on the floor waiting for an ambulance. Then she got even worse and was unable to get out of bed by herself, even to get onto a commode next to the bed, or into a wheelchair (I helped her a few times and hurt my back doing so). Realistically, at that point she needed 24 hour care, and unless she was to stay in bed the rest of her life, she needed specialist equipment, which wouldn't be possible in either her house or ours. Operating this equipment requires two people.

So it would be a choice between staying in bed till she died ("Allo, Allo" comes to mind here!) or moving into care.

Oh, and my parents had my grandmother living with them for nearly 30 years. My mum was adamant that she didn't want us to do the same for her, as it was so restrictive to their lives.

@Nothinglikeachocolatebrownie

I think her children should pay, once her own money has been exhausted. And if her children are married, then it comes from family finances. I would hate to think that a mother would be left with nothing except the pension and LA funding when she has living children and family who are fit and able to work. In my eyes that would be a disgrace. I don't like my MIL and I would never want her to live with me but if she had no finances I would pay whatever necessary to ensure she had a decent quality of life.

I don’t think most family finances would be able to cover fees of thousands of pounds a month. Even very basic care homes are over £1,000 a week. It would be like paying 4 mortgages.

My gran moved in with us when I was a child. Her dementia resulted in her setting the kitchen on fire. And on another occasion, walking through the living room naked when I had a school friend round. I could give many many more examples of how difficult it was, and I remember my mum being beside herself at times.

And of course the cultures who can't even consider putting their elders into a care home, rely on the females of the family not having a paid job of their own, and having all the responsibility and work of caring for the elders.

@saraclara

My gran moved in with us when I was a child. Her dementia resulted in her setting the kitchen on fire. And on another occasion, walking through the living room naked when I had a school friend round. I could give many many more examples of how difficult it was, and I remember my mum being beside herself at times.

And of course the cultures who can't even consider putting their elders into a care home, rely on the females of the family not having a paid job of their own, and having all the responsibility and work of caring for the elders.

All of this.

Caring is incredibly hard work. I used to organise it as a SW. Families would work themselves into an early grave doing it.

And yes, it's not 'families' is it? It's 'women'.

With dementia running through my family my aunt and mum went into care home at £25k a year
The last sister is in one in London now.. £72k
And refused Chc funding, which is a scandal in itself.
My mum paid £95k into the system and my aunt £125k
I managed their bills by letting their houses, which paid for 1 week out of 4
Pensions ( small) nearly topped up the rest
Luckily my aunt had a little pot of savings that made up the shortfall, this was passed to mum when she passed on.

Their houses weren’t expensive by se and london standards but I managed to inherit them and hope they will pay for my care when I need it.
Actually I’ve sold one..so forget that

Care homes are much of a muchness here
The ones my relatives were in were the same whether you or LA paid
It’s a very unfair system

There’s no way I could’ve cared for my relatives
They were both in care homes at The same time and with health issues myself it was Impossible
They didn’t go in until they were 86 and about 84
Just maintaining them at home when things were starting to slip
I even turned mums ground floor into a self contained flat with wheel in shower etc
I think she managed two months before she went to care home
She kept wandering the streets
Very, very sad

We still have all 4 parents aged 82 to 93. We take the view that we can't pay for one and not the other and if they were all to need residential care that would be £3500 - £4000 per week, more than we earn! They are all at home at the moment but it's highly likely that 3 will need residential care within the next couple of years. We give support, we pay for bits and bobs but, short of a lottery win, the LA will have to pay for ILs and my DPs house will need to cover theirs.