Triple lock remains

[triplelock]

Name changed as I understand this probably won't be a popular opinion.

AIBU to think it's not exactly fair for the working population to have their tax thresholds frozen for 4 years while pensions get to keep their triple lock?

I understand some pensioners struggle on the state pension alone. But a lot of families also struggle on minimum wage.

Bet you'd have a different opinion if you were, oh, say 64-65-ish eh @triplelock ???

Pension age has increased, but still not by enough. It was set at 60 for women and 65 for men for years and years even though the average age of dying had increased considerably.
I was supposed to retire at 60 (this year) but it is now 67. I can quite see this increasing to 70 before I get there.

The pension is £175 week hardly excessive

[quote pinkearedcow]OP, YANBU. It's a myth that pensioners are generally poor. On the whole, they have far more disposable income than many working age families

You may be wrong there...

What is the average retirement income in the UK?

The government’s most recent data (taken from 2017/18) shows the average weekly income for pensioners to be £304 – that’s after you’ve taken away direct taxes and housing costs. This works out at around £15,080 net per year.

How does average retirement income compare to average earnings?

It’s interesting to see how much disposable income the average pensioner today receives, in comparison to the average worker. Average UK earnings – before tax or housing costs – are £30,420. After income tax, National Insurance and 5 per cent pension contributions (the recommended minimum), this is reduced to £23,111. On the face of it, this is about 50 per cent more than average retirement income.

However, this does not factor in housing costs. The average UK mortgage payment is £669 per month or £8,028 per year. If this is deducted from the average net income, the result is £15,083.

By a striking coincidence, it appears from these figures that average net income is almost exactly the same for today’s retired generation as it is for today’s working generations. This is clearly in large part due to the high cost of housing. While the retired generation may largely own their own homes outright, and have no further mortgage payments to make, the working generation is spending a large chunk of its higher income on putting a roof over its head. Consequently, net income seems to balance out to within £3 a year. It really is that close.

www.unbiased.co.uk/life/pensions-retirement/what-is-the-average-uk-retirement-income[/quote]
So now that you have established that the post tax/housing incomes of pensioners and working families are near identical, compare their outgoings. Which category has got kids to feed? Which category has to keep buying clothing as kids grow?

What it does prove in any case is that pensioner incomes can be tied to inflation and average incomes and no longer need the 2.5% third lock.

@DynamoKev

Also for all those generational warriors - you'll be old one day (if you're lucky) - would you rather state pensions were decent or shit? Because if you kick the ladder down now, you'll actually be the ones losing the most over the years between now and your retirement.

It would be an achievement if there will even be a state pension by the time I retire. It's already a given that I will lose out, particularly because the triple lock (i.e. regularly increasing the state pension above the level of inflation) is not sustainable in the long term and it will all implode. My state pension age was set at 68 by the Blair government, what's the betting that it goes up to 70 now?

@Fr0thandBubble

I agree OP. The sacrifices have been made to protect the old, and they are the only ones not having to pay for it.

The sacrifices were made to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed.

DdraigGoch how many years will you have worked if you got your pension at 70, if it is more years than I had to (best part of 51 years) I will every sympathy for you

For this whole pandemic it's been about being in it together but now that isn't the case.

This has always been bullshit and I suggest you get rid of the idea that this not being left behind was anything other than a soundbite.

[quote triplelock]@cardibach

I'm not saying they shouldn't have an increase at all.

What I'm saying is the bounce back of the economy and the triple lock is likely to mean they'll gain more in the next 4 years then they would have had Covid not happened.

IMO they should have removed the triple lock for the next 4 years and replaced it with a standard %

As I said in my OP some pensioners to struggle to get by on state pension. But a family on minimum wage in a private rental (which no doubt will go up in price over the next 4 years) will struggle equally if not more. For this whole pandemic it's been about being in it together but now that isn't the case. [/quote]
Old peoples income is largely all spent though.

They don't tend to be big savers so maintaining their disposable income gives the government another method to dump.cash into the economy

A state pension is pathetic- you're not living the high life on it. Private pensions are much like high earners- only a very small percentage of people have a decent one, which makes a 'good' quality of life. If you're working- there's always an opportunity to be able to grow savings or income. On a pension- none. I don't begrudge it at all.

@littlepattilou

Bet you'd have a different opinion if you were, oh, say 64-65-ish eh *@triplelock* ???

Depends on my circumstances.

If I had a paid off mortgage on a house that had hugely increased in value and had a private pension to top my income up (like a lot of pensioners do) then I don't think I'd begrudge it temporarily going.

I know I'm seeing it through the eyes of pensioners I know who are able to afford nice holidays, coffees out, and sky subscriptions. Which are things I could only dream of being able to afford.

I also highly doubt state pension will be a thing when I retire. As others have said they aren't sustainable. Plus they haven't made private pension contributions compulsory for companies and opt out for workers for nothing.

Yanbu. We're in a lockdown to save the pensioners, then the working population are expected to pay for it. Of course the triple lock should go. Pensioners have had a lifetime to save for retirement.

YANBU. And I'll resent it even more when MIL who worked for five years her whole working life, whinges about how hard done by they are whilst sitting on significant pots of money doing nothing.

The full state pension is about £9000 pa, that's after 40 years of working and paying for it. Private pensions are deferred income /savings people have made; they chose to use their money that way.

There's so much ageism on MN, I find it quite depressing.

But pensioners do not have a time machine, and cannot go back to the circumstances which led to them being on pension credit (as so may are).

Pensioner poverty is appallingly high in this country.

If the state pension were not so low (compared to other European countries) in the first place, then a double lock would probably be just as good a policy (because the risk of erosion otherwise is just too high)l. But when it's so low, the triple lock is the slow way to increase it, rather than making actual increases - something which would be increasingly difficult to resist as the proportion of those on pension credit rises.

The lockdown was primarily to stop NHS being overwhelmed (see also statements from say Germany about their lockdown and the need to prevent their healthcare being overwhelmed) and to have planned lockdown is better than chaotic collapse without mitigations in place. The alternative to propping up society, rather than letting it collapse in awful weeks of such high levels of sick absences that supply of goods and services collapses, is not just inhumane (to the whole population) it's also the more expensive option

I know I'm seeing it through the eyes of pensioners I know who are able to afford nice holidays, coffees out, and sky subscriptions. Which are things I could only dream of being able to afford

They're things that most pensioners cannot afford as well.

You are looking at a skewed and unrepresentative stereotype

They typical British pensioner is poor and is scrimping

I agree with pp that ageist stereotypes, especially unrepresentative ones are deplorable. And only serve to promote division.

Why are people saying it's because it's a Tory government? If anyone of you voted Labour I'd have hoped you read the manifesto and saw they also were proposing to keep the triple lock and freeze the pension age.
It's hardly a massive amount of money for pensioners, I don't begrudge them having it.

@scaevola

I know I'm seeing it through the eyes of pensioners I know who are able to afford nice holidays, coffees out, and sky subscriptions. Which are things I could only dream of being able to afford

They're things that most pensioners cannot afford as well.

You are looking at a skewed and unrepresentative stereotype

They typical British pensioner is poor and is scrimping

I agree with pp that ageist stereotypes, especially unrepresentative ones are deplorable. And only serve to promote division.

According to government statistics the average pensioner has £320 a week left after housing costs. This figure rises if you're a pensioner couple.

£1386 a month isn't exactly a small amount left over after rent, especially when you don't have children to pay for. A lot of people would consider selling a kidney to have £1386 left after rent, nursery and commuting costs.

Also worth noting that the amount of children living in poverty in the U.K. is over double the amount of pensioners living in poverty in the U.K.. This is not ok for either group, but gives a bit of perspective.

Also I'm not saying scrap it, I'm saying freeze it or replace with a standard % for 4 years. While minimum wage, income tax thresholds and public section pay are frozen for the working population.

@scaevola

I know I'm seeing it through the eyes of pensioners I know who are able to afford nice holidays, coffees out, and sky subscriptions. Which are things I could only dream of being able to afford

They're things that most pensioners cannot afford as well.

You are looking at a skewed and unrepresentative stereotype

They typical British pensioner is poor and is scrimping

I agree with pp that ageist stereotypes, especially unrepresentative ones are deplorable. And only serve to promote division.

Bollocks.

Of course someone with just a pension can afford those things. Pensioners may present an image of 'poor and scrimping' but the numbers simply don't agree with that picture.

Obviously it's not all cruises and Ferraris on the basic state pension, but it more than covers the basics with money to spare on top. Many own their houses outright but if not, are entitle to housing benefit. This is the generation who could afford to buy family houses on a single manual worker's salary.

DM owns her 4 bed semi and has an income of around £900 pm. She doesn't get into debt and can pay all her bills, not worry about putting the heating on, buys her groceries in M&S and Sainsburys, has money to spare to spend on the house, treat grandchildren, go on trips, has pets etc etc and still not get through all her income.

While pensioners and low income families might have a similar income after housing costs, in pensioner households it only has to cover one or two people and no costs of going to work, while a low income family has to feed and clothe DS, go to work etc etc on top. The money has to pay for so much more.

It is hard when you are struggling to see other people benefitting. The elderly population cost the country a fortune in health care and social care. The longer they can remain independent and have a reasonable standard of living to support good physical and mental health the better for everyone. I am not saying the system is perfect but look at the bigger picture. Also you can not compare the opportunities for work for woman today to those in the past and please can we start to value the roles people play in life other than going to work.

There is always a lot of ageism on mumsnet talking about rich pensioners. My parents had a good (not rich)standard of living at the end but for years and years life was very basic , no central heating, one week holiday in the next county in the cheapest accommodation, no treats when out like ice creams, cups of tea, a rented TV , basic home cooked food , no meals out , no phone in the house, chilblains on feet from cold floors. It was a different world. My mum cared for her brother while he was dying and her mum and mum in law. My dad worked hard from age 16 and mum part time as well as raising us ,no child care available anywhere then. I despair that some younger people are so unable to see beyond their own experience.

Sorry I should say 'some people 'not just 'some young people'

@Sleepingdogs12

There is always a lot of ageism on mumsnet talking about rich pensioners. My parents had a good (not rich)standard of living at the end but for years and years life was very basic , no central heating, one week holiday in the next county in the cheapest accommodation, no treats when out like ice creams, cups of tea, a rented TV , basic home cooked food , no meals out , no phone in the house, chilblains on feet from cold floors. It was a different world. My mum cared for her brother while he was dying and her mum and mum in law. My dad worked hard from age 16 and mum part time as well as raising us ,no child care available anywhere then. I despair that some younger people are so unable to see beyond their own experience.

But that was the normal standard of living for most people up to the 1970/1980s.

We only had central heating because my dad was a miner and we got free coal. Most of my friends who's dads weren't miners didn't have it.

Current public sector workers have had virtually no pay rise for over a decade and the state pension has gone up about 30% in that time. The same percentage should be applied to all.

I do understand that was normal for many people at the time but it doesn't change the argument, however lots of my friends did have a more affluent life style . I am in the public sector too.

Think I've got confused in my argument now! I just think it isn't a race to the bottom and the issues are about wirking conditions and pay for younger people rather than reducing pensions for older people who may have struggled, worked hard in different ways and need to remain active, fit and healthy for as long as possible.