To think faith schools are great and it’s only the admission cheats that make them unfair?

[Wondermule]

My second controversial post in a few days. I don’t need a hard hat at this point, I need a bunker and full ghillie suit. But here goes.

Inspired by a thread, where a poster happily shared that they lied about going to church to get their kids into a Catholic school, before denouncing the admission system as deeply unfair...

I would like to put to the good people of mumsnet that actually, admission by religion is a really good idea. And it is only the people that cheat the admission system that keep it unfair for others.

Religion is a great criteria for school admissions. It doesn’t indicate intelligence; it isn’t an indicator of wealth; it would keep sibling groups together; and the ethos and PSHE would be generally in keeping with the parents’ beliefs.

The reason why faith schools are ‘better’ are because of non-religious people with intelligent kids cheating the system to get their kids a place. This then perpetuates the cycle - the kids perform well, the school becomes more desirable, so more people cheat to get their kids in.

So aside from depriving genuine applicants of school places, they are contributing to a system that they denounce as unfair. Whereas if they stopped playing the system, schools would actually be more mixed in terms of demographics, more equal, and there wouldn’t a stampede for just a few of them.

Phew! Thoughts please?!

I do agree about proof of parents’ devotion. This wasn’t part of the ethos in the cluster of schools I was involved with. Confirmation required monthly attendance but was really quite flexible. It had to be!

@Blackberrycream

I was replying to your first post *@BiBabbles* I am not denying the truth of some of what you say but I am also aware of options available to students I have taught if the Catholic schools were closed. It doesn’t make it ok that children are attending schools where they see chairs thrown at teachers and results are abysmally low but the surrounding schools are the ones that need to be held to account. Taking away good options from working class children is not a good thing.

I guess if you view religion as in inherently positive or harmless thing to teach children to believe in, you would think this way. But I don't think state funded religious schools should continue to exist purely because they get good results so why not. In my opinion, there are many reasons why not. There is obviously a need for a general overhaul to address various issues with the school system, but getting rid of religion in is one of them, not the saving grace.

@Justajot

I accept that you have to understand Christianity to understand some aspects of our society - like the continuing privileges given to a faith by government.

But it is perfectly possible to learn science without that understanding. Science education is pretty big in non-Christian countries, like India, Japan and Israel. They are hardly teaching European Christian history to give their science context, unless specifically studying the history of science.

It's a strangely privileged position to take to say that the non-religious owe their morality to a particular religion. When you think that it's fairly arbitrary which dominant religion or historically religious culture you grow up in, it's weird that any tries to claim this.

You see that is where you have totally missed the point in your blinded hatred of one religion.

Science and technology could equally be construed as good or bad, without technology would the environment be in such an absolute mess? No. But equally it has brought many benefits. The same with Christianity, everything Emanates what we perceive as good and evil. They are two sides of the same coin. One mans meat is another’s poison.

The argument here though is the rights and wrongs of the teaching of Christianity in schools. I myself am not Christian although I take many things from the Christian faith. My opinion is that the majority of the development of the intellectual and societal aspects of the U.K. and Europe over the last 1500 years have developed within a Christian framework where separation of art, science and religion really didn’t exist.

I am a firm believer that to understand something fully you need to understand its evolution and that necessitates an understanding of the environment in which each stage existed. I’m sure as a scientifically minded person you’ll agree. And to understand the intellectual and social landscape today (including scientific theory and methods) you need to understand the environment in which they developed, a Christian framework. It’s a useless exercise to try and establish how things would have developed in Europe without this framework, the answer would be differently but who knows if it would be better or worse, no one could ever say. If Christianity had been rejected and Neoplatonism been the guiding philiisophy (without being absorbed into Christianity) how would society have developed? But the point is we know what the predominant philosophy has been in the U.K. and the rest of Europe for a long period of time. Negative history, whilst interesting, is ultimately pretty futile.

This of course is purely looking at the teaching of Christianity with regards science. The necessity to understand Christianity to full understand literature, art, history etc is probably much more obvious.

I think the apparent hatred of Christianity and the barely veiled humanist society propaganda on this thread is hiding the real point in an endeavour to invalidate the recognition of Christianity in society today in anything but a negative light. There’s an attempt to rewrite history to fit an agenda (always dangerous).

This is not about whether you agree with the theology of the Christian faith, it is about whether you agree with presenting as complete a picture as possible. Bigotry has no place in education.

Regarding whether or not morals can exist outside a religion, of course they can but alternative systems have failed time and time again to catch the imagination and be understandable to the masses and almost inevitably ends with a series of allegories and heroes aka religion. It appears throughout the last 7 million years mankind has found a need for religion time and time again.

The anthropomorphification of animals saying they have morals is a very different situation, it arises, as is the case with humans to make their society work. But humans have a much better grasp of the need for deferred gratification and our societies and individual and collective consciousness are much more complex necessitating the need for much more complex moral structures which as stated above has historically inevitably led to the development of religion.

@aSofaNearYou
I understand the arguments but it’s hard to be happy about big moral arguments and stances when you understand the direct impact that such a move would have on individuals and certain areas of deprivation. Until outcomes are better for black students, and other working class children of all ethnicities, it’s not something I would support. Schools need to learn from schools that are successful and there needs to be an open minded approach. This is already happening in the LEA I worked in to some extent.

This is not about whether you agree with the theology of the Christian faith, it is about whether you agree with presenting as complete a picture as possible. Bigotry has no place in education.

I don't believe that teaching any religion to children as though it were true, rather than teaching them that they exist and some people believe in them but there's no actual proof, can be considered to be "presenting a clear picture". That is why people keep highlighting the difference between teaching people about religion, and teaching them that they are true.

I grew up in public schools, do these religions ever make kids feel bad they are not religious enough for them?

[quote Blackberrycream]@aSofaNearYou
I understand the arguments but it’s hard to be happy about big moral arguments and stances when you understand the direct impact that such a move would have on individuals and certain areas of deprivation. Until outcomes are better for black students, and other working class children of all ethnicities, it’s not something I would support. Schools need to learn from schools that are successful and there needs to be an open minded approach. This is already happening in the LEA I worked in to some extent.[/quote]
I can understand and respect that stance.

But I still disagree that state funded religious schools are inherently positive for any other reason.

I mean religious school, not religion

We are not taught any religions in our school.

@Lockandtees
I’m not disagreeing with you. You know your area. I know mine though which is why I don’t agree with a broad brush approach.

@aSofaNearYou

This is not about whether you agree with the theology of the Christian faith, it is about whether you agree with presenting as complete a picture as possible. Bigotry has no place in education.

I don't believe that teaching any religion to children as though it were true, rather than teaching them that they exist and some people believe in them but there's no actual proof, can be considered to be "presenting a clear picture". That is why people keep highlighting the difference between teaching people about religion, and teaching them that they are true.

But we learn lots of things school that are so oversimplified they actually bear little resemblance to reality.

I think went through Catholic schools and the vast majority of people that went through them with me are not religious at all. People aren’t that passive that they just accept everything they are taught. We had plenty of discussions around how we felt about different aspects of Catholicism, my A level history looked at the Reformation and Renaissance (which wasn’t quite Catholic brain washing lol). I think people have a perception about religious schooling which is often far from the reality.

Yabu Faith schools should be completely abolished as they do nothing but cause segregation during formative years meaning children grow up with a lack of understanding and a culture of fear around their differences. Northern Ireland is an example of this and the devastating impact it can have on relationships right throughout adult life. communities there are slowly trying to change it around.
There is nothing positive about them and all children have an equal right to access state funded education from an equal point ,and nobody should be prevented from accessing their nearest school on grounds of their parents beliefs. It is terrible cruel and discriminatory to make a child travel miles to school , bypassing one on the way just because they don’t fit the right culture box. Religion can be taught at home and church

@blubberyboo

Yabu Faith schools should be completely abolished as they do nothing but cause segregation during formative years meaning children grow up with a lack of understanding and a culture of fear around their differences. Northern Ireland is an example of this and the devastating impact it can have on relationships right throughout adult life. communities there are slowly trying to change it around. There is nothing positive about them and all children have an equal right to access state funded education from an equal point ,and nobody should be prevented from accessing their nearest school on grounds of their parents beliefs. It is terrible cruel and discriminatory to make a child travel miles to school , bypassing one on the way just because they don’t fit the right culture box. Religion can be taught at home and church

So what means of admission would be better and more equal? That’s what the thread is about.

@ilovefish

What evidence do you have that I blindly hate one religion?

You haven't addressed my point that other countries have fully fledged science education that doesn't require teaching of European Christian history.

I was just thinking about how U.S. are not allowed to teach religions in school. It’s a good thing but it also made me wonder if it left people to their own device when it comes to religion.
Like someone who self studied the Bible and decided the cherry pick how they should treat other people because they didn’t have anyone telling them “this is not what the Bible meant- let me show you and explain why”

There are private Christians school and a lot of kids get kicked out because they or their parents’ religion didn’t match up with the school. I already know a few from my old church. Thank goodness they have public schools that is free and paid for by the local tax payers. Education is a human rights.

Catchment areas. They work pretty well. You definitely get your Nearest school! No lying and going to church. Or catchment and a ballot if the school is a bit leafy Lane. Most education authorities could work perfectly well with no religious schools at all. Most controlled schools don’t choose by religion anyway. Just aided ones. They could keep their character and become controlled. Our local junior has a catchment and is CofE controlled. Head is a bit of a religious freak though.

I also prefer the agreed RE syllabus for all schools. Whatever the faith of the DC in them.

[quote Justajot]@ilovefish

What evidence do you have that I blindly hate one religion?

You haven't addressed my point that other countries have fully fledged science education that doesn't require teaching of European Christian history.[/quote]
I’ll assume that post is aimed at me even if you can’t get my name right.

I think you have provided ample evidence here you abhor Christianity, it probably doesn’t need further expansion. It would be interesting to know why you are so against the teaching of a particular faith in schools.

Sorry I missed that particular point, out of interest which particular counties do you have in mind, although, of course I am not privy to their educational systems so it would be useful if you could provide their curriculum content for ease of reference.

Do you have a view on the need for understanding Christianity for the more important subjects like Literature history and art?

Its just an objective fact that teaching Christianity in-depth does not lead to demonstrably better educational outcomes. Otherwise the international school rankings would be led by Christian countries, they aren't. Also the higher up the academic ladder you climb the less and less religious people you will find, never mind just Christians.

The only thing teaching religious history (to children) will do, is to learn more religious history, increase the prominence of Christianity and increase religious privilege (which is probably the real goal). I am tolerant of religions but I am not tolerant of religions being forced onto children.

Yes a religious person can also be academic (like Ben Carson) but I don't think any modern academic has ever provided a single advancement that can be attributed to their religious beliefs.

If people want a private religious school then fine. Isn't that what churches are supposed to provide, is Sunday school no longer a thing? But state schools should prioritise admissions on either catchment area or academic ability. Yes rich parents will use the system (as they do now), no system is perfect but its better than religious selection.

There is currently no way to hold to account when a school with faith-based admissions is tweaking their admissions through classist issues in the religious institution's leadership

I've never seen a Catholic school favour affluent applicants over Catholic pupils, so I have no idea what some posters are going on about here. You probably have misinterpreted something you've seen or were told

@ihatefish

Sorry, I think you are just being intentionally goady. You don't give any evidence that I abhor Christianity, probably because there isn't any. I don't object to the teaching of Christianity in schools, providing it isn't taught as fact.

You claim that understanding Christianity is of vital importance to understanding science, but don't seem to know all that much about science education. I'd argue that science education is pretty fundamental to understanding of science.

As for:
Do you have a view on the need for understanding Christianity for the more important subjects like Literature history and art?

Yes, absolutely understanding Christianity is important for those subjects. That's one of the reasons that schools are required to teach RE. Are they the "more important" subjects? That's just you being goady again, isn't it?

Also the higher up the academic ladder you climb the less and less religious people you will find

Lots of generalisations on this thread that are simply not true

I grew up in public schools, do these religions ever make kids feel bad they are not religious enough for them

I have not experienced this either. If a child is accepted knowing they are not religious, I haven't seen any instances where they were made to feel guilty about this.

Do you have a view on the need for understanding Christianity for the more important subjects like Literature history and art?

I do, and I suspect you're not going to like it. This always gets trotted out on these threads like some kind of gospel truth gotcha but actually there's very little backing for it.

a) the smattering of RE you get in secondary school is not going to suddenly persuade a bored 15 year old to start listening to the St Matthew Passion instead of Ariana Grande or whatever kids that age listen to

b) if it's that important, nothing stopping you reading up on it outside school

c) exactly the same argument can be applied to other subjects that are not routinely taught in UK schools (most obviously philosophy)

d) other countries don't teach about religion and still manage to produce people who enjoy art and music.

@keflavikairport

I did wonder about your first point. There are some obvious bits of art and literature that tie into bit of religion that are taught - the last supper springs to mind. But you're never going to cover all of the references to religion in art and literature in RE, so aren't you better off teaching them alongside art and literature?