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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think faith schools are great and it’s only the admission cheats that make them unfair?

604 replies

Wondermule · 01/03/2021 18:52

My second controversial post in a few days. I don’t need a hard hat at this point, I need a bunker and full ghillie suit. But here goes.

Inspired by a thread, where a poster happily shared that they lied about going to church to get their kids into a Catholic school, before denouncing the admission system as deeply unfair...

I would like to put to the good people of mumsnet that actually, admission by religion is a really good idea. And it is only the people that cheat the admission system that keep it unfair for others.

Religion is a great criteria for school admissions. It doesn’t indicate intelligence; it isn’t an indicator of wealth; it would keep sibling groups together; and the ethos and PSHE would be generally in keeping with the parents’ beliefs.

The reason why faith schools are ‘better’ are because of non-religious people with intelligent kids cheating the system to get their kids a place. This then perpetuates the cycle - the kids perform well, the school becomes more desirable, so more people cheat to get their kids in.

So aside from depriving genuine applicants of school places, they are contributing to a system that they denounce as unfair. Whereas if they stopped playing the system, schools would actually be more mixed in terms of demographics, more equal, and there wouldn’t a stampede for just a few of them.

Phew! Thoughts please?!

OP posts:
turquoisewaters · 06/03/2021 08:41

If you’re interested in seeing the connection I can recommend some amazing books

I would be interested in some recommendations if you would like to share

StillCoughingandLaughing · 06/03/2021 08:44

@Wondermule

Is this thread still going???
No, it stopped after three pages. The rest has all been in your imagination.
Ihatefish · 06/03/2021 08:46

@Justajot

I am not really convinced that *@ihatefish* knows much about modern science or science education. Whilst the history of science is undoubtedly interesting, you don't actually need to know it to know science. That's why quite a lot of it isn't taught within sciences.

The bits of history of science that are taught are the bits that were eureka moments or experiments that elegantly demonstrate something - like Rutherford's gold foil experiment demonstrating that atoms are most empty space.

Plenty of science is taught without the historical context and certainly without reference to religion. Much of the history of science is being led down blind alleys by weird religious beliefs. Whilst interesting, they don't build an understanding of our current understanding of the world.

Ihatefish says
The rational needs the energy of the creative and the guiding hand of morality.

Morality isn't the preserve of religion. It is quite possible to be moral without being driven by being judged by a god or following a divine text. Nor is creativity.

I loved this bit:
Most of all try understanding psychology without understanding Jung try understanding Jung without understanding Gnosticism and the outflow from the kabbalistic Christianity of the 15th-17th century.
I have a degree in Psychology and we didn't cover Jung. Probably because the modern science of Psychology is experimental and evidence based. Psychology is a subject that does take a somewhat historical approach to teaching - looking at how studies how studies have enabled theories to be refined, but that really doesn't mean starting with Gnosticism.

Maybe that is because they teaching of the history of science is too narrow? Maybe it is not facilitating a full understanding, maybe there is an agenda in this somewhere. I suspect you have little understanding of anything that isn’t plonked in front of you.

Interesting to know who did a whole psychology degree without any studying of Jung. Sounds like a very limited degree with a very narrow focus on current trends.

So you think there’s an objective morality that is universal and doesn’t need any kind of framework? Bloody hell I would be asking for a refund from my degree if I was you -I hope you aren’t actually practicing in this area.

Ihatefish · 06/03/2021 08:48

And @justapot your reply clearly indicates that you have no understanding of Christianity

turquoisewaters · 06/03/2021 09:03

So you think there’s an objective morality that is universal and doesn’t need any kind of framework

Have people never seen a bunch of seagulls fighting over a piece of bread? That's what 'humanity' would be were it not for the message imparted by most religions (which some appear to be so disgusted by)

newstart1337 · 06/03/2021 09:07

Can you please explain how you understand the development of the U.K., which, over the last, say, 1500 years took place within a Christian framework, without understanding the Christian framework

Knowledge developed despite 1500 years of Christian oppression, not because of it. The dark ages were not an expansion of knowledge.

Leaving religion out of learning is the single best advancement for science we have ever had. Long may it continue.

I really dont understand why anyone would want us to return to the dark ages.

newstart1337 · 06/03/2021 09:10

a bunch of seagulls fighting over a piece of bread? That's what 'humanity' would be were it not for the message imparted by most religions

Does anyone really want that 'opinion' taught to children?

Lockandtees · 06/03/2021 09:11

This reply has been deleted

Withdrawn at the user's request

turquoisewaters · 06/03/2021 09:20

your outrageous views

There's nothing outrageous about my views. I don't know why you would say that. It's my opinion, very valid.

Ihatefish · 06/03/2021 09:33

@newstart1337

Can you please explain how you understand the development of the U.K., which, over the last, say, 1500 years took place within a Christian framework, without understanding the Christian framework

Knowledge developed despite 1500 years of Christian oppression, not because of it. The dark ages were not an expansion of knowledge.

Leaving religion out of learning is the single best advancement for science we have ever had. Long may it continue.

I really dont understand why anyone would want us to return to the dark ages.

“The dark ages were not an expansion of knowledge” Jesus Christ! Where does one begin with shit like that? I see you don’t believe in attending history lessons in addition to English and RE.
Ihatefish · 06/03/2021 09:36

I’m also not sure how you can say knowledge expanded despite not because of Christianity. I really just don’t know where to begin with you? In fact I’m starting to question the basis of evolution itself! Ironic that you are perhaps starting to make the concept of creationism a valid alternative🤣

Ihatefish · 06/03/2021 09:38

@turquoisewaters

If you’re interested in seeing the connection I can recommend some amazing books

I would be interested in some recommendations if you would like to share

Hi, I’ll DM you later with some when I get home if that’s ok.
turquoisewaters · 06/03/2021 09:46

Thank you @Ihatefish

Blackberrycream · 06/03/2021 10:02

@newstart1337
My comments about intolerance were aimed at some clearly intolerant views on display here, yours included.
It is not necessary to be religious to be kind ( I hate that phrase but will use it as it is the one you used) but it is also not necessary to be non religious. To make prejudicial statements about a whole group of people while claiming tolerance is a secular value shows some interesting contortions in logic.
Similarly with science, your statements just reveal ignorance. Several prominent science pioneers also have religious faith. Look it up.

Justajot · 06/03/2021 10:33

I accept that you have to understand Christianity to understand some aspects of our society - like the continuing privileges given to a faith by government.

But it is perfectly possible to learn science without that understanding. Science education is pretty big in non-Christian countries, like India, Japan and Israel. They are hardly teaching European Christian history to give their science context, unless specifically studying the history of science.

It's a strangely privileged position to take to say that the non-religious owe their morality to a particular religion. When you think that it's fairly arbitrary which dominant religion or historically religious culture you grow up in, it's weird that any tries to claim this.

aSofaNearYou · 06/03/2021 10:33

@turquoisewaters

when it comes to explaining Christianity's impact on our social history

I don't want (and it's not appropriate) for my children to be brainwashed with highly distorted and biased opinions about how Christianity has impacted our 'social history'. I'll stick to them learning about religion itself, thanks

What? Learning about history and how religion shaped the laws, events and beliefs of those times is hardly "brainwashing", and is far, far more grounded in truth than teaching Christianity as fact.

How on EARTH could you have come to the conclusion that an objective but thorough overview of history is MORE biased than teaching children to believe in God???

aSofaNearYou · 06/03/2021 10:44

@turquoisewaters

So you think there’s an objective morality that is universal and doesn’t need any kind of framework

Have people never seen a bunch of seagulls fighting over a piece of bread? That's what 'humanity' would be were it not for the message imparted by most religions (which some appear to be so disgusted by)

If you want an example of bias, look no further than this statement.

There is no way of knowing that humanity could not have developed positive morals without religion. Almost every tyrannical reign and atrocity in history has been done in the name of religion, it is not just a pleasant moral lesson, it has been used as a means of control. I won't go so far as to say religion teaches us nothing positive but it is EXTREMELY rich to say it is the thing keeping us moral.

BiBabbles · 06/03/2021 16:23

@turquoisewaters

the religious leaders within a religious institution at a specific place can and do affect the class of people who attend

I thin we are confusing 'class' or 'economic strata' with 'religion'

Personally I've never come across a religious school that used 'class' or 'money' as entry criteria.

If the requirement includes attending a particular religious building in a particular place, then it doesn't need to be overt in the admission criteria. All they need to do is decide - just like any institution - what type of people they will welcome and which they will make it harder to attend.

Why do you think the remarks of "cheats" are "middle class" rather than working class which if anything from the state of working class results and education in the UK, would have far more reasons to "cheat". Are working class people just more ethical - or are institutional barriers that religious leaders can ignore, support, or actively work to bring down part of the situation as well when it comes to class?

I'm not confusing economic strata or class with religion. Classism and actions based on perception of economic strata can be part of the corruption within any institution and institutions that do nothing to counter wider social classism will inevitable have those problems too.

As I've said in previous posts, I know non-faith schools with strong religious ethos that have Pupil Premium as a high priority marker, third just behind the required ones for looked after and medical reasons. That's valuing openness. Saying only people of X faith who can prove it by Y amount of attendance feels like valuing control.

I don't agree with those concepts either. But I do require that the school is in alignment with the teachings that I want my children to incorporate. They are my children and I will and should have a prevalent say in how they are educated. Would you allow your MIL for instance or any random to instil beliefs in your children that you do not agree with because someone thinks it will be 'fairer' to them?

Yes, my children are allowed to be part of wider society that may instill values that have nothing to do with me and what I believe. Their friends have values that I don't agree with, they read books and see media that have values I don't have -- just like I had friends with values my parents didn't agree with and read things they didn't like. I don't feel I've a write to control that, especially with teenagers.

I allow my children to take part in everything their friends and schools have about Christmas or Easter that they want even though we do not celebrate those holidays within the home. I allow my DDs' to attend a school with loud religious ethos even as a philosophical monist who thinks humans lack the capacity to know anything about the nature of divinity because my older DD wanted to transfer there in Y7.

And yes, my children saw my MIL smoke and heard her values even though I didn't agree with many of them. I let my eldest stay with her for weeks one summer and it resulted in him getting a smart phone I hadn't wanted and a haircut that I have a feeling my in-laws played a role in as they hated long hair on males - which we heard a lot about as my spouse has waist length hair. I let them around their late great grandmother and have kept some of her religious books in the house even though I firmly disagree and think too many in power within it abuse said power.

I can tell you that the world would be a much worse place to live in if it weren't for the efforts of most religions (despite the occasional mishaps - which occur in every organisation-)

Religion is an incentivising tool - whether as a system it promotes greater good or not depends on those in power within it. Whether things would be 'much worse' is debateable when there are many other incentivising tools that are used alongside it - it's never been the only incentive for people to cooperate.

Corruption happens in every institution - yes, it takes intense vigilance and scrutiny to nip corruption -- but calling the institutional abuse, the violence, the deaths, the harmful, active efforts of many religious leaders and those who've held power within religions as "occasional mishaps" is pretty disgusting. Do you call rapes or death in state custody "occasional mishaps"? Do you call state supported genocide a "mishap"? Children that have gone "missing" or abused while in state care? Leaders, secular or religious, who motivate these things are guilty of far more than a mishap and should be held to account.

Have people never seen a bunch of seagulls fighting over a piece of bread? That's what 'humanity' would be were it not for the message imparted by most religions (which some appear to be so disgusted by)

It is said the first sign of true humanity is a healed femur, though I think this was in Neaderthals cared for their injured is among the earliest we've found.

I work with a lot of sociobiological data and actually, there are a lot of examples in the animal kingdom of animals caring for even animals of other species let alone their own kin, so I may not entirely agree with the sentiment that it's uniquely human , but we've also lot of evidence of humans caring well before religions or even complex language came into play. Part of how we succeed as a species is through cooperation - even with all the horrors of humanity, historical evidence suggests we've long been far less violent than even our closest primate kin.

Corruption is something to be vigilant against, one of the corrupting forces is to think the worst of others, that they require to be controlled - that disincentives cooperation. I mean, the vast majority of people queue nicely without threat, there are outliers and situations that provoke people, but most of the time, most people are not going to fight over bread for no reason even without religion involved. We're socially very different to seagulls.

Lockandtees · 06/03/2021 17:32

This reply has been deleted

Withdrawn at the user's request

aSofaNearYou · 06/03/2021 18:16

@BiBabbles great comment.

Blackberrycream · 06/03/2021 18:17

That’s not a recognisable picture of a Catholic school to me. Catholic working class children are not ignored. It’s a huge part of the ethos to provide the best possible education to children in all circumstances. There are usually places beyond the Catholic priority criteria. The conversation may have been more to do with being generally supportive of the ethos.
There may well be wayward schools in more middle class areas ( Catholic schools are focused more in areas of deprivation) but it’s unfair to tar the whole because of the few.

BiBabbles · 06/03/2021 18:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BiBabbles · 06/03/2021 18:38

MN keeps hiccuping for me and I thought the last post was eaten which has led to awkward repeat posting Blush I've asked MN to delete the second one.

That’s not a recognisable picture of a Catholic school to me. Catholic working class children are not ignored. It’s a huge part of the ethos to provide the best possible education to children in all circumstances. There are usually places beyond the Catholic priority criteria. The conversation may have been more to do with being generally supportive of the ethos.
There may well be wayward schools in more middle class areas ( Catholic schools are focused more in areas of deprivation) but it’s unfair to tar the whole because of the few.

This won't be representative of all religious schools - there will likely be examples across all denominations just as there will be great across all faiths of places that do reach out and try to overcome classist and other social barriers, but the complaints about middle class people "cheating" will involve those that do this -- and the clergy will be involved with this.

There is currently no way to hold to account when a school with faith-based admissions is tweaking their admissions through classist issues in the religious institution's leadership. That's an issue, at least if holding institutions to account is seen as important.

We can't say that faith-based admissions are 'fairer' when we know wealth and class play a role and we can't put all the blame on middle class parents. I find attempts pretty laughable --- clergy are well aware in those areas what is going on and can make it harder for them if they wish - many don't. It benefits them.

Schools can have strong religious ethos and be great without requiring proof of parents' devotion that adds less transparency to the admissions process.

Blackberrycream · 06/03/2021 18:40

@BiBabbles
Doesn’t that whole argument fall down though if in actual fact many don’t want to use the schools. Some do and some don’t. Many have argued on this thread that the schools are indoctrinating children. I and many don’t agree but if that’s your opinion, why would you want to use the schools? Others have argued that their value added is less, using data from 2 think tanks ( no, think tanks are not free of political bias )while ignoring other data about ethnic mix and location of schools ( data that both think tanks ignored too ). Again, if that’s your opinion, why would you want to access the schools?
The middle classes often have sharp elbows. Secular schools can be extremely divisive in terms of class and ethnic mix.
Currently, I would argue, they are serving black students better than the mainstream school system. They have double the percentages of black students and are achieving grades equal to or marginally above national averages. That is a whole separate thread but their impact can’t be ignored.

Blackberrycream · 06/03/2021 18:45

I was replying to your first post @BiBabbles
I am not denying the truth of some of what you say but I am also aware of options available to students I have taught if the Catholic schools were closed. It doesn’t make it ok that children are attending schools where they see chairs thrown at teachers and results are abysmally low but the surrounding schools are the ones that need to be held to account. Taking away good options from working class children is not a good thing.