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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think faith schools are great and it’s only the admission cheats that make them unfair?

604 replies

Wondermule · 01/03/2021 18:52

My second controversial post in a few days. I don’t need a hard hat at this point, I need a bunker and full ghillie suit. But here goes.

Inspired by a thread, where a poster happily shared that they lied about going to church to get their kids into a Catholic school, before denouncing the admission system as deeply unfair...

I would like to put to the good people of mumsnet that actually, admission by religion is a really good idea. And it is only the people that cheat the admission system that keep it unfair for others.

Religion is a great criteria for school admissions. It doesn’t indicate intelligence; it isn’t an indicator of wealth; it would keep sibling groups together; and the ethos and PSHE would be generally in keeping with the parents’ beliefs.

The reason why faith schools are ‘better’ are because of non-religious people with intelligent kids cheating the system to get their kids a place. This then perpetuates the cycle - the kids perform well, the school becomes more desirable, so more people cheat to get their kids in.

So aside from depriving genuine applicants of school places, they are contributing to a system that they denounce as unfair. Whereas if they stopped playing the system, schools would actually be more mixed in terms of demographics, more equal, and there wouldn’t a stampede for just a few of them.

Phew! Thoughts please?!

OP posts:
Original poster
Wondermule · 03/03/2021 09:38

[quote custardbear]@turquoisewaters - that should be inherent in people, not driven by the church [/quote]
Of course. But it isn’t. So if the church encourages it, is that such a bad idea?

OP posts:
turquoisewaters · 03/03/2021 09:40

Friend of mine starting inviting the priest round for a cup of tea ! Her interest in all things to do with him and the church attached to the school waned a bit after year 8. Doesn't go near it now

Well, there you have the cheats that the OP is describing. Why do you blame the priest in this case, he is the one who's being manipulated, surely?

the80sweregreat · 03/03/2021 09:41

@turquoisewaters

Friend of mine starting inviting the priest round for a cup of tea ! Her interest in all things to do with him and the church attached to the school waned a bit after year 8. Doesn't go near it now

Well, there you have the cheats that the OP is describing. Why do you blame the priest in this case, he is the one who's being manipulated, surely?

Yes, I agree he was being manipulated too. It just shows that you need to work at it if you want a particular thing in life.
aSofaNearYou · 03/03/2021 09:42

In many catchment areas, all the non religious schools have low OFSTED ratings, whilst there is an abundance of religious schools that are all great. I think it's appalling that people are faced with a choice of pretending to be religious, or sending their child to a bad school.

Religion should have absolutely no basis in schooling, there's no good justification for it at all, it's backwards and needs to go.

BiBabbles · 03/03/2021 09:43

I really don't think church leaders are as foolish as some people think they are.

turquoisewaters · 03/03/2021 09:43

that should be inherent in people

There's very little that's inherent in humans. I'm not a neuroscientist or an anthropologist, but I can tell you that the world would be a much worse place to live in if it weren't for the efforts of most religions (despite the occasional mishaps - which occur in every organisation-)

Original poster
Wondermule · 03/03/2021 09:46

@aSofaNearYou

In many catchment areas, all the non religious schools have low OFSTED ratings, whilst there is an abundance of religious schools that are all great. I think it's appalling that people are faced with a choice of pretending to be religious, or sending their child to a bad school.

Religion should have absolutely no basis in schooling, there's no good justification for it at all, it's backwards and needs to go.

So what admissions system would be fairer? That’s what this thread is about. It’s pointless commenting ‘I find faith schools outrageous blah blah’ because that’s not actually what this thread is about.
OP posts:
user64332 · 03/03/2021 09:50

I'll admit I haven't RTFT- but the reason I think they are grossly unfair is because there aren't any truly secular schools. The non Christian schools are still Christian, they have Collective Worship and Religious Studies curriculum is Christian heavy due to government guidelines because officially we are a Christian country. So there is no real alternative for atheists.

turquoisewaters · 03/03/2021 09:52

the religious leaders within a religious institution at a specific place can and do affect the class of people who attend

I thin we are confusing 'class' or 'economic strata' with 'religion'

Personally I've never come across a religious school that used 'class' or 'money' as entry criteria.

Original poster
Wondermule · 03/03/2021 09:53

@user64332

I'll admit I haven't RTFT- but the reason I think they are grossly unfair is because there aren't any truly secular schools. The non Christian schools are still Christian, they have Collective Worship and Religious Studies curriculum is Christian heavy due to government guidelines because officially we are a Christian country. So there is no real alternative for atheists.
Well if you’d RTFT you would see I have proposed atheist schools as part of my ‘idea’.
OP posts:
turquoisewaters · 03/03/2021 09:54

due to government guidelines because officially we are a Christian country

Maybe we have to come to terms with this?

Blackberrycream · 03/03/2021 09:54

@JassyRadlett

I do have a very good knowledge of the area I work in though. The schools here do an exceptional job in extremely challenging conditions. Whether that is convincing to you or not is immaterial.

The problem is that you accused me of misinformation when I talked about faith schools as a class. I’ve provided evidence to support my statements. You haven’t provided any evidence to support your accusation of ‘misinformation’.

Except you haven’t. You stated that Catholic schools only outperform secular schools where selective intake is a factor. There are many inner city schools where this is not the case except you say you are not interested in individual schools. Like I said, look at the league tables. As to the figures, I imagine it would be interesting to many parents that with significantly wider ethnic diversity, the Catholic schools are still outperforming . Again, see inner city schools.
aSofaNearYou · 03/03/2021 09:58

Any other one? If all schools were secular and people were squabbling for places, at least they would be squabbling over places that are all appropriate for them.

Blackberrycream · 03/03/2021 09:59

@Wondermule
Religious grammars are an interesting case in relation to your original question. Altrincham Grammer for girls and Loreto Grammar for girls are both in the same wealthy suburb. One caters to an extremely small catchment area, the other takes girls from across the city due to the Catholic criteria. The boys grammar functions similarly. It is a route for poorer inner city children to access top schools.

turquoisewaters · 03/03/2021 10:01

If all schools were secular and people were squabbling for places, at least they would be squabbling over places that are all appropriate for them

Religious schools are appropriate for a great number of the UK population who are religious though.

Malbecfan · 03/03/2021 10:06

I hate them. In my part of Devon, there is no alternative for primary education than C of E or RC. We're neither.

We ended up having to send them to a C of E one where they went to church every week. The vicar was actually a nice guy but when he retired one of the wacky parents got an evangelical group in and the DC moaned about the content and delivery and the fact that you were not allowed to question anything. I also hated it that the Church of England were happy to interview someone for the Headteacher's post even though they couldn't spell the school's name correctly and their letter was littered with typos and grammatical errors. Because the C of E put in 10% of the budget, this entitled them to a huge say in the running of the school.

turquoisewaters · 03/03/2021 10:12

when he retired one of the wacky parents got an evangelical group in and the DC moaned about the content and delivery and the fact that you were not allowed to question anything

I would assume this is not common and not sure if technically 'allowed'? i.e. 'bringing in' a group from a different denomination to teach in a CofE school?

user64332 · 03/03/2021 10:21

OP, I did see you'd said that. What I mean is they are grossly unfair as they stand right now. I'd be absolutely fine with them as you say if the non secular were truly non secular but as they are currently I understand why parents cheat the system.

I find that Mumsnet users like the ‘idea’ of diversity and equality, but not so much when it impacts their own lives 🙄 they all want schools to be a great leveller by taking kids from all backgrounds - but will only send their own children to the ‘naice’ oversubscribed ones, cheating their way in while they’re at it. They want to live somewhere with great culture, a good buzz, a diverse and friendly neighbourhood... but not this or THAT area of the city, it’s an absolute dump as well as the most diverse

This is SO true. I live in a large area of very high deprivation but with a small village of wealthy middle class families within it. The village parents will choose the requires improvement low FSM rate school over the outstanding schools with a high FSM. Eg, two schools with less than half a mile between each other. One is surprisingly Catholic (surprising because in the wider area it is the Catholic schools that are better) undersubscribed, requires improvement and then inadequate at the latest Ofsted, weak leadership, just below national average KS2 results, lower SEN rate, predominantly white and only 6% FSM pupils.

The next school nearby is in a deprived area, well above average KS2 results, innovative curriculum, strong leadership, more diverse, outstanding in all areas and has 70% FSM pupils and is not at all on the radar of the village parents.

So even with the absence of better results middle class parents are still choosing the Catholic school and as has already been established, class is not a factor in religious belief so I highly doubt it is because they are all Catholic. I find it baffling. I'd rather have the diverse school with better results and a higher rate of deprivation because I'm not an outrageous snob.

aSofaNearYou · 03/03/2021 10:23

Religious schools are appropriate for a great number of the UK population who are religious though.

Personally, I don't think they are. Schools are to educate, they should be teaching things that are known facts, and everything else as theory or debate. If you want to teach religion as fact it should be done in the home.

But regardless, the greater proportion of people are secular and that is not reflected in the amount of areas where religious schools greatly outnumber non religious ones.

turquoisewaters · 03/03/2021 11:12

the greater proportion of people are secular

Not sure about this. How do you define secular?

aSofaNearYou · 03/03/2021 11:20

@turquoisewaters

the greater proportion of people are secular

Not sure about this. How do you define secular?

Does it matter? My comment clearly stated that even if 100% of the country was Christian, I don't think faith schools should be a thing.

I'm seeing varying stats on how many people in the country are religious/non religious, but they're all about 50/50. Doesn't make any difference IMO, religion should not factor into schools outside of RE.

Womencanlift · 03/03/2021 11:40

@aSofaNearYou

Religious schools are appropriate for a great number of the UK population who are religious though.

Personally, I don't think they are. Schools are to educate, they should be teaching things that are known facts, and everything else as theory or debate. If you want to teach religion as fact it should be done in the home.

But regardless, the greater proportion of people are secular and that is not reflected in the amount of areas where religious schools greatly outnumber non religious ones.

Completely agree. If you want a religious education then that is what church is for. Nothing wrong with educating that various religions exist but shouldn’t be the foundation of a school education

To answer the OP question on how allocation can happen as mentioned above the Scottish system of primary schools feeding high schools seem to work fine and tend to mix primary schools so there is a mix of backgrounds

JassyRadlett · 03/03/2021 11:47

Given that you’re now outright lying, @Blackberrycream, I’m going to decline to engage with you further.

Blackberrycream · 03/03/2021 13:44

Fine JassyRadlett
You don’t seem to understand what facts can be extrapolated from data. Your ‘ fact couldn’t be.
I can on to recount personal experience and knowledge of several schools in a deprived area of one city. I am not a liar.

Thisisworsethananticpated · 03/03/2021 13:57

user64332

100% agree

My ex was Italian and I loved how everyone want to the same school
And what you say is a global issue , same in any developed city
Same trend in Brooklyn , Paris , Stockholm

English prejudice rears it head the most when it comes to schools