To think faith schools are great and it’s only the admission cheats that make them unfair?

[Wondermule]

My second controversial post in a few days. I don’t need a hard hat at this point, I need a bunker and full ghillie suit. But here goes.

Inspired by a thread, where a poster happily shared that they lied about going to church to get their kids into a Catholic school, before denouncing the admission system as deeply unfair...

I would like to put to the good people of mumsnet that actually, admission by religion is a really good idea. And it is only the people that cheat the admission system that keep it unfair for others.

Religion is a great criteria for school admissions. It doesn’t indicate intelligence; it isn’t an indicator of wealth; it would keep sibling groups together; and the ethos and PSHE would be generally in keeping with the parents’ beliefs.

The reason why faith schools are ‘better’ are because of non-religious people with intelligent kids cheating the system to get their kids a place. This then perpetuates the cycle - the kids perform well, the school becomes more desirable, so more people cheat to get their kids in.

So aside from depriving genuine applicants of school places, they are contributing to a system that they denounce as unfair. Whereas if they stopped playing the system, schools would actually be more mixed in terms of demographics, more equal, and there wouldn’t a stampede for just a few of them.

Phew! Thoughts please?!

The problem is that when you look at something as a class you miss an accurate picture of regional variation. Faith schools can be a byword for racial segregation in small towns. I imagine that would skew overall data significantly.
I do have a very good knowledge of the area I work in though. The schools here do an exceptional job in extremely challenging conditions. Whether that is convincing to you or not is immaterial. These communities benefit significantly from these schools.

I agree with you 100% OP!

I don't agree with faith schools but they are a historic legacy with no easy solution

In our village, the primary school is C of E, as are a lot of rural primaries. Every child in the village goes there unless they go to a private school. There is no postcode lottery -our village has a mix of all types of housing including social housing. If attendance at the school was limited to practising CofE families, where would all the village children go? And the school would be virtually empty.

Totally disagree with church schools. Religions and agnostics need to be mixed to foster tolerance.

I also don’t like the way they are foisted on many. Our town school and the second after were CofE. I did not want CofE forced onto my dc. There were so many things we and other parents disagreed with but had to suck up.

I begrudge every penny of tax payers money going on church schools. If you want to force a religion on your child fund it yourself.

I think maybe people need to accept that faith schools are in fact outperforming secular schools, in which case it is time to learn from them

Exactly, why don't we try to improve secular schools rather than 'abolish' faith schools because they are doing well?

@Scr1bblyGum

Totally disagree with church schools. Religions and agnostics need to be mixed to foster tolerance.

I also don’t like the way they are foisted on many. Our town school and the second after were CofE. I did not want CofE forced onto my dc. There were so many things we and other parents disagreed with but had to suck up.

I begrudge every penny of tax payers money going on church schools. If you want to force a religion on your child fund it yourself.

Not what is being discussed.

I begrudge every penny of tax payers money going on church schools
If you want to force a religion on your child fund it yourself

You do realise that tax payers' money goes into funding causes and disseminating ideas you may not necessarily agree with as well, right?
TV channels, grants, etc. Why this fixation against religion?

I do have a very good knowledge of the area I work in though. The schools here do an exceptional job in extremely challenging conditions. Whether that is convincing to you or not is immaterial.

The problem is that you accused me of misinformation when I talked about faith schools as a class. I’ve provided evidence to support my statements. You haven’t provided any evidence to support your accusation of ‘misinformation’.

I’ve voted YABU, but not because I don’t believe faith schools should be by religious affiliation - I agree with that point.

But faith schools aren’t all they’re cracked up to be. I have a DC with ASD who was bullied horrifically at one. Ended up in hospital because he was attacked at school and all the school would say about it was “he knows he shouldn’t be going near the other child.” They completely failed him education wise, he left that school after 3 years unable to read, write and had no confidence left whatsoever. One move to a non faith based school later, he’s caught up to a reasonable level, his confidence is shaky but he does have some. He’s got friends, he’s got (educational and life skill) support coming out of his ears, he’s a completely different child.

@ChancesWhatChances

I’ve voted YABU, but not because I don’t believe faith schools should be by religious affiliation - I agree with that point.

But faith schools aren’t all they’re cracked up to be. I have a DC with ASD who was bullied horrifically at one. Ended up in hospital because he was attacked at school and all the school would say about it was “he knows he shouldn’t be going near the other child.” They completely failed him education wise, he left that school after 3 years unable to read, write and had no confidence left whatsoever. One move to a non faith based school later, he’s caught up to a reasonable level, his confidence is shaky but he does have some. He’s got friends, he’s got (educational and life skill) support coming out of his ears, he’s a completely different child.

Very sad, but again, not what is being discussed.

I have only read your posts OP so unsure if this has already been discussed but the allocation works perfectly fine in Scotland when it is down to catchment area in my experience

When I was at school there were 5 high schools in my town (1 catholic and 4 non denominational). All the catholic primary schools filtered to one and the other primaries were split by the other 4. Each of the 4 had a mix of the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ sides of town to avoid any social mobility issues as you describe it and all 4 were of a similar educational standard

You could apply for a spot at one of the others but this was very rare

Since that is my norm learning how the English system works with all the stress of applying for places and cheating that goes on I much prefer our system - but for other reasons I fundamentally disagree with faith schools.
Kids should not be taught from age 5 that people are different than them just because of their religion and introducing separation from that age encourages it. And if you don’t believe that then you have obviously never lived in the west of Scotland where segregation due to religion is a massive problem and one that starts at school

Oh and worrying about social mobility - I guess you could say I was from the ‘bad’ side of town and being allocated a school didn’t do me any harm. Now have a very successful career and didn’t need to ‘cheat’ my way into a particular high school to get here

Urhhh, I thought that some of what we were discussing was if faith schools are great?

Kids should not be taught from age 5 that people are different than them just because of their religion

This is not what is being taught in most religious schools at all

People have different belief systems. This is a fact of life which kids need to accept and understand.

What I mean is, people are not 'different', they have a different religion.

Not RTFT but faith schools should be banned, or at least church/private funded. No public money should fund an education that teaches fairytales as fact

@custardbear

Not RTFT but faith schools should be banned, or at least church/private funded. No public money should fund an education that teaches fairytales as fact

I can see you haven’t rtft as that is not what is being discussed.

@Wondermule - you say they're great - I say different. And although you say it causes less postcode lottery, don't forget those who can afford to buy in good areas for good schools, can also buy and 'donate' their way into faith schools, rub shoulders and get their way to school that way - the church is very corrupt

[quote custardbear]@Wondermule - you say they're great - I say different. And although you say it causes less postcode lottery, don't forget those who can afford to buy in good areas for good schools, can also buy and 'donate' their way into faith schools, rub shoulders and get their way to school that way - the church is very corrupt [/quote]
Really? You have evidence people have paid their way into state faith schools? That’s groundbreaking - can you post it here please?

Don't be naive @Wondermule - open your eyes and stop believing fairytales and scratch beneath the surface from time to time

@custardbear

Don't be naive *@Wondermule* - open your eyes and stop believing fairytales and scratch beneath the surface from time to time

We’re not here to discuss the merits of religion.

We are here to discuss whether religion alone would actually work as a fairer way of filtering school places.

stop believing fairytales

The takeaway from most people who have had exposure to religion is not 'fairytales' but positive concepts like compassion, doing good to others, etc.

I m not sure if paid their way into a certain school does go on, but parents suddenly taking an interest in the local church or the priest certainly does. Especially around two years before a child is ready for secondary school.
I was brought on a rough East London estate and the ' better ' catholic or C/E secondary schools were a train ride away. Parents were keen to suddenly get involved as the priest could write a nice reference for their alter serving children and they could be confirmed or whatever it took to get them a place.
Friend of mine starting inviting the priest round for a cup of tea ! Her interest in all things to fo with him and the church attached to the school waned a bit after year 8. Doesn't go near it now.
I've known a few people who admit this went on. It was a while ago now , so maybe things might have changed a bit, but getting what you want takes time and money and sometimes a devious mind too. Depends how much time you can devote to it. It must be nice to have the money to pay for a private school as that must be much easier all round. Money talks.

Faith schools don't use faith to admit children, and then not teach them the beliefs of that faith; they are not using religion as a way of getting a cross-section of society, as you suggest, they are trying to keep the numbers of believers up

I'm being deliberately cynical here, but how is this different from any kind of ideological activism (in some cases partly funded with taxpayers money) that most people currently seem to tolerate?

Why are some belief systems worthier than others?

But who gets to decide what's fair for the children

The OP seems to have defined it as having a broad cross-section of people and preventing sharp elbowed middle-class parents from having a significant influence.

Choosing by religion doesn't really do that - the religious leaders within a religious institution at a specific place can and do affect the class of people who attend and religious beliefs are related to our parents and the culture we were raised in, so 'mobility' is far less than class.

Again, if I send my children to a certain school, I would expect the school to reinforce what I teach my children at home (e.g. religion), not completely opposite values because someone has decided it's 'fairer for them'

A school can have strong religious ethos without having faith as an admissions criteria.

My DDs' go to a Church of England secondary school. They have "FAITH values" everywhere and in all their lessons and over lockdown have videos from our local cathedral. On their governing board includes a representative from said cathedral and the academy trust their part of is literally the 'Diocese of [city] Trust' which only has CoE schools.

They do not require church attendance or belief at any of thoe schools. There are people of all faiths and none in the school. They prioritize children who are eligible for Pupil Premium which I think says a lot about how they interpret Christianity.

Just because someone is of a faith that they send their child too doesn't mean they will have the same values either. People interpret their faith very differently. Just because a school doesn't have religious admission doesn't mean they'll have "opposing values" to religious people and just because it has religious core different to mine doesn't mean it has "opposing values". My values aren't actually in disagreement with their interpretation of Christianity, my worldview that humans do not the capacity to know and define the divine in any meaningful way is in disagreement with any religious that defines divinity.

No school is going to line up perfectly with my values, even if there was one that matched my philosophy - that's not how religions or philosophies work. They can be a catch-all term for a set of beliefs, but personal values are different -- and personally, I don't think all home values need to be reinforced at school. Not all homes or religious institutions are teaching things we'd want state schools to get involved with - a home that teaches women's only value is in marrying well or a religious institution whose response to abuse is "shut up and pray for them, honour thy mother and father - and church leaders - so that it may go well with you all the days of your life", things I've experienced, yeah, the state should not be funding schools that do that and we should challenge schools of any creed who put at risk a child's options and well-being, no matter what some parents or institutions may want, because that is fairer to the child.

@turquoisewaters - that should be inherent in people, not driven by the church