To think WFH permanently is a game changer?

[MiaMarshmallows]

For working parents as it saves on childcare costs as well as commuting etc?
DP been told he can wfh indefinitely and it's going to improve his lifestyle so much more. For everyone saying he will be outsourced, not a chance. He is very specialised in what he does and earns a very good wage for it.
One good thing to come out of all this at least.

Why not? If a company makes decisions that are attractive to its employees, and hence helps them recruit and retain good people, then that could be a sensible business decision.

Indeed. We hired a woman part time hours term time only, who's now moved up to full time now that both her kids are mid secondary. She's very talented, and we've built up loyalty by being flexible to her needs.

Now we have someone very experienced who is doing a cracking job for us.

(of course it has its downsides, like the blokes who stay because its a cushy work environment)

Why do some people have such tunnel vision? just because you personally can't pick a child up by 4:30pm doesn't mean many people can't, goodness me! Many many people choose to work 8-4pm instead of 9am - 5pm.

I could easily pick my DD up by 4:30 when WFH. Would be impossible from the office though.

I think the thing that narks me about the WFH nay sayers is that for the first eleven years of my career I've been subject to their default and their preferred way of working.

Now the world is turning about to my default and you hear a lot of pissing and moaning.

I'm an advocate of blended working, always have been. I'm delighted that everyone has had a decent chance to see the advantages of WFH, and decide which they prefer.

The idea that I will go into the office to act as a social opportunity for someone else is jarring though. WFH will allow me to see my actual friends more, and be less stressed/tired out when I do so. So long as staff are performing well for work, that isn't a deciding factor for me.

(separately, all my "problem" staff were those who had too great a social and personal investment in work - the ones with a good, separate work-life balance are least trouble and best workers)

I'd certainly like the option of WFH a few days a week.

I do think some people have got rather comfortable WFH during this period and will be in for a shock should their employer want them in office soon.

While a lot of people claim to be more productive and the like i've found service from some companies, educational institutions e.t.c to be abysmal during this time.

I think whether you are more productive really depends on your work style and your office culture.

For example I unfortunately work in an office with a colleague who won't stop talking to me, all day. I do not wish to offend them so I just kind of have to deal with it. And even silly things like, in our huge building the chilled water dispenser is ages away and takes a 5 min round trip - I drink lots of water so that accumulates!

At home, I can get on without the pressure of engaging in casual conversation and because I enjoy it so much, I would not skive off as I want to prove that WFH, works.

I do sympathise with people who can't WFH but I just really think the option should be there for those who are willing and able. There are so many benefits and so it's frustrating when the arguments against it mainly consist of mistrust and suspicion towards people with dependents!

But, thecatsthecats, you too seem entrenched in your position, sneering at people who like “going” to work.

And you are in that joyless band of people, oft to be found on MN, who have actual friends, and don’t need to find new ones at the school gate, or via hobbies or, heaven forfend, at work . Normal people can pick up a friend, or more usually, a pleasant acquaintance, anywhere.

But the key point is young people. Frankly it just smacks of I’m all right, jack and kicking the ladder away to decree that it’s now all home working (from nice big house with cosy little family) and f**k the 20-something sat in their childhood bedroom.

@PearlescentIridescent

Why do some people have such tunnel vision? just because you personally can't pick a child up by 4:30pm doesn't mean many people can't, goodness me! Many many people choose to work 8-4pm instead of 9am - 5pm.

I could easily pick my DD up by 4:30 when WFH. Would be impossible from the office though.

But would your employer consider you to be working when you are in fact getting the DCs out of the house in the morning? Or do you just use wraparound care the other end (may be cheaper, it's true)? Or are we talking DCs who can do everything for themselves but just can't get themselves home (lack of buses or school not considering Y6 able to walk home etc). Because it's all very well saying I have no imagination when you clearly can't imagine a child that needs hands on care almost all the time they are in the house.

@IrmaFayLear

But, thecatsthecats, you too seem entrenched in your position, sneering at people who like “going” to work.

And you are in that joyless band of people, oft to be found on MN, who have actual friends, and don’t need to find new ones at the school gate, or via hobbies or, heaven forfend, at work . Normal people can pick up a friend, or more usually, a pleasant acquaintance, anywhere.

But the key point is young people. Frankly it just smacks of I’m all right, jack and kicking the ladder away to decree that it’s now all home working (from nice big house with cosy little family) and f**k the 20-something sat in their childhood bedroom.

I sort of agree with you, there is an undertone with some posters that there is something wrong with people that have workmates as friends, that get something out of the social aspect of it, who don't see work as some awful seperate thing to be 'grinded at' (as my teenagers would put it) while their amazing 'real' friend-filled life in their beautiful home happens elsewhere. I have a very nice and full life and lots of friends and hobbies but I ALSO love my closest work colleagues, enjoy my job and miss going to the office and going out for lunch and travelling for work enormously. I feel especially sorry for the young people you reference @IrmaFayLear who may not have had the chance to build the other building blocks of a good life and for whom work inevitably occupies a more central role - and there is nothing wrong with that.

My "actual friends" are by and large people that I used to work with. We weren't particularly friends when we were colleagues, but we stayed in touch and got to know each other afterwards.

There are hundreds of posts on MN from people asking how you make friends. The first step is to talk to another person. For many people, particularly those in a new area, or those with young children that make it hard to go out in the evening, this is most easily someone at work.

It is also especially difficult - or can be I guess depending on your personality - for those of us who live alone. My children are with me half the time, but the other half, when I'm coming off the back of a weekend on my own and then no place to get up and go to on Monday morning...I tell you that's rough. The simple thing of going in, seeing people who are happy to see you, to have someone ask 'any news?' or 'how was your weekend?'. I know some people will say 'that's not your employers problem' and I guess technically it isn't but it is societies problems if life become even more atomised and individualised and people even more in their own bubbles than they already are.

That model doesn't work for anyone @IrmaFayLear but sadly it's always the case that some folks can't think of the bigger picture, just what suits their circumstances at this point in time.

We need a balanced approach with flexibility. Some wfh, some in the workplace. An eye to ensuring newly hired or less experienced staff can learn by what they see more experienced colleagues doing day to day. More experienced/senior staff then able to delegate with confidence and offer mentoring throughout unfamiliar tasks.
Unless we invest the time in junior staff they won't become the next generation of senior staff.

Checks to ensure that the role can be performed efficiently and with any suitable confidentiality maintained from the home environment. Rules about suitable childcare being place to permit 100% devotion to the task in hand during working hours. It will be scary territory for some control freak bosses but if we want to capitalise on what has been learned/achieved as an outcome of the pandemic "work from home if you can" requirement instead of slipping back into archaic presenteeism thinking, then many of us need to speak up and pursue wfh possibilities right now as employers are currently planning as a result of the recent statement regarding the "roadmap to freedom".

The derided snowflake generation look at some of the more senior staff habits of long commute times, working unpaid overtime at managerial level and already voiced that they won't be doing similar /promotion shouldn't be based on forgoing a decent work-life balance. I know of a business who are looking at re-purposing one floor of their office space to possibly be offered as "flatlets" for some of their graduate intake who would otherwise find commuting eating in to their work life balance. Partial change of use permission will no doubt be hampered by red-tape from councils whose officials don't seem to currently working particularly efficiently from home in my experience.

It does amaze me how often posters post, assuming their circumstances are replicated for everyone else, and they don't have the ability to understand that

• other people's dc might be different ages, and
• other people's wraparound school care might have different charging policies, and
• everyone's work might not be the same as theirs, and
• that not everyone is necessarily needed to be 'visible' in front of a screen for all their working hours, and
• that there are plenty of jobs where people can juggle times around and do part of their job outside of '9 - 5' or whatever time their job happens to be.

@SATSmadness

That model doesn't work for anyone *@IrmaFayLear* but sadly it's always the case that some folks can't think of the bigger picture, just what suits their circumstances at this point in time.

We need a balanced approach with flexibility. Some wfh, some in the workplace. An eye to ensuring newly hired or less experienced staff can learn by what they see more experienced colleagues doing day to day. More experienced/senior staff then able to delegate with confidence and offer mentoring throughout unfamiliar tasks.
Unless we invest the time in junior staff they won't become the next generation of senior staff.

Checks to ensure that the role can be performed efficiently and with any suitable confidentiality maintained from the home environment. Rules about suitable childcare being place to permit 100% devotion to the task in hand during working hours. It will be scary territory for some control freak bosses but if we want to capitalise on what has been learned/achieved as an outcome of the pandemic "work from home if you can" requirement instead of slipping back into archaic presenteeism thinking, then many of us need to speak up and pursue wfh possibilities right now as employers are currently planning as a result of the recent statement regarding the "roadmap to freedom".

The derided snowflake generation look at some of the more senior staff habits of long commute times, working unpaid overtime at managerial level and already voiced that they won't be doing similar /promotion shouldn't be based on forgoing a decent work-life balance. I know of a business who are looking at re-purposing one floor of their office space to possibly be offered as "flatlets" for some of their graduate intake who would otherwise find commuting eating in to their work life balance. Partial change of use permission will no doubt be hampered by red-tape from councils whose officials don't seem to currently working particularly efficiently from home in my experience.

This type of cultural management is far worse than a long commute. The organisation then owns and surveilles every aspect of your life.

I'm not advocating cultural management, and I can't see how what I've posted falls to be described as cultural management.

A control freak boss is way worse than a long commute but both are draining especially as you get older.

I love working from home. I'm by myself most days as DD is at nursery and DP goes to work 3 days and does 2 days from home.

I only need a laptop, phone and pad to do my job. I started off with a desk upstairs in the spare room but moved down to the dining room as it has a nice view of the garden. I can easily close my laptop and put my stuff away when I finish for the day.

I've got a gnarly commute which involves going on a motorway in normal times, I've really enjoyed not having to do that every day. I didn't realise how much it stressed me out until I stopped doing it. If we don't move to 3 days at home, 2 in the office (at least) then I will look for a job with a better commute. We've been told that we won't be going in until July at the earliest, so I'll have to take a call on things later this year.

I can’t think of anything worse than permanent work from home. Being with your spouse 7 days a week isn’t normal and who has job where you can look after kids while working full time??

How are parents WFH saving on childcare? If they’re looking after their kids they’re not working, if they’re working they’re not looking after their kids.

csigeek - I am saving a bit as I had to pay someone to pick up my kids from school and take them home (primary school age). Now I can pick them up and then go back to work and they can amuse themselves for a couple of hours seeing as I am in the next room.

I feel very fortunate that I’m in a role and in a company where I’m able to help shape what our working options will be in the future. For us this will be about choice, I will choose to work in the office possibly 2 days a week because I miss the interaction, but someone else in my team might choose to wfh full time unless they have a reason to come in. Some might want to come in to the office every day, and those are all ok and about personal preference. We don’t have any role apart from possibly facilities and IT who have any real need to be on site.
Work should be about output and not presenteeism. This includes taking time out for the school run or even an off peak gym membership if that will help you perform better the rest of the time. We’ve proved that the vast majority of our people can work fine from home and those that can’t perform are being managed appropriately.
I realise not all roles can be done from home, but in my industry if I worked for a company that was desperate for this to ‘all be over so we could get back to the office’ I’d be looking for a new job.

@BlueSoop

I would love to wfh but the fact is most employers want people in. Imo we will end up with a social divide where poorly paid workers are wfh and higher paid workers are required in the office.

Ime it's higher paid workers who get the opportunity to work from home.

@TheLostDiadem

It better bloody not be. The town I live in is already too expensive for locals to buy a property. The last thing we need are a load of Londoners coming down and being a bunch of condescending pricks.

Why would Londoners be condescending pricks?

Are you nuts? If both parents work then our LO still needs to go to childcare. I have been forced to go freelance because of the pandemic and this has slashed my income by 50%. Every hour counts. WFH as a freelancer means I need my 2yo out of the house more than ever! Plus, PITA though commuting is, I hate the lack of division between home and work caused by WFH. Gagging to get back into a proper workplace (hopefully in September).

I find I am far more productive working from home. It works for me, but I can see why it's not suitable for everyone.
I would like to see colleagues face to face once in a while (when safe of course).

I’ve worked from home full time for many years and it isn’t a game changer for childcare or the school run. It’s expected that children won’t be at home (unless they are ill and there’s no one else to look after them) and meetings are all through the day so I can’t just go off and do the school run. We needed to pay nursery fees and after school club as normal. It is however an advantage when children are ill and I hope if more people do work from home we’ll see fewer children sent into school when they are obviously still ill or infectious (I think people will be more cautious post COVID anyway).

I agree that more senior roles are traditionally the ones where people are given the flexibility to work from home. In a lot of cases people work hard for many years to earn the privilege, so if there is a drive to return to the office I suspect it will be the more junior staff who will be expected in.