To think WFH permanently is a game changer?

[MiaMarshmallows]

For working parents as it saves on childcare costs as well as commuting etc?
DP been told he can wfh indefinitely and it's going to improve his lifestyle so much more. For everyone saying he will be outsourced, not a chance. He is very specialised in what he does and earns a very good wage for it.
One good thing to come out of all this at least.

I absolutely love WFH.

I have an in-demand skill and if my company won’t let me WFH when the office reopens I’ll go to a company that will. I’ve already been approached but want to wait and see.

@AnnaSW1

I love it but it's not saving on childcare costs as we still put our 2 children in nursery so we can both do our job properly and so they can be properly entertained and play outside.

Agree with this. I couldn’t work with my two at home. Not a chance.

I agree to some extent. I was already partly WFH before and some colleagues were doing it full time but it was being cut back (for the full time WFH not the couple of days a week everyone else could do). After this I think my employer will have to extend more flexibility rather than less.
Personally Id like to WFH 3days and 2 days in the office and DH will do the same or similar. I think face to face is important and WFH has its limits but a balance of both can be fab.

It definitely saves on childcare

• no afterschool care to pay for kids say aged 7 onwards (or less with older siblings around) if the work is flexible to allow picking them up from school (many jobs are! I used to have a short lunch break and then take another break for that or simply move my lunch break to 3pm-4pm to pick up the kids). Pre covid I'd work from home on 2 days, pick up the kids at school ( aged 5 and 8 at the time) and then back to work. Never had an issue, they're old enough to look after themselves!

• less nursery hours needed or nanny hours. I'm opting for a nanny going forward and we can only afford it because we will be partly WFH so I can restrict her hours to 37hours a week which suits everyone!

It definitely doesn't save on any childcare at all. Do people think you can genuinely work properly with children at home?

@therealteamdebbie

I don't want to be rude but I don't think you and I would get on too well as colleagues. Maybe it's the industry I work in but soft skills, the ability to make chat, to contribute towards a good atmosphere, to be pleasant to be around is also really important.

I am absolutely charming at work! That's part of why I am paid for! It's a complete waste of my time frankly. I'd rather spend my time with people of my choice, than most of my days in an office contributing to a good atmosphere. I am great in the team, I am even better with clients, and I am the one who gets promoted...

As everyone else, I am only there for the pay cheque.

I guess I am not just there for the paycheque, I don't really see work as something to be endured to give me the money to do the things I really want to do. At it's best, it IS what I want to do! I see work as part of my life and if I'm going to spend a fair chunk of my time on it, I choose to do the kind of work that interests me - even if not so well paid - and to have mostly positive interactions and feelings about it. And by the way, I don't think this just applies to 'dream' jobs, I've had waitressing jobs which were great fun and where I looked forward to seeing my colleagues and even some of the customers!

@Munkeenut

It definitely doesn't save on any childcare at all. Do people think you can genuinely work properly with children at home?

you are missing the point

Nurseries are opened, so these children are in childcare anyway.
Schools reopen next week. (England)

Instead of finding childcare from 7am, I can just arrange for my kids to go to school

and don't need childcare after 5 or 6pm. Afterschool club is enough.

@Munkeenut

It definitely doesn't save on any childcare at all. Do people think you can genuinely work properly with children at home?

Depends on the age of the kids. I work perfectly well with my older 2 in the house since they were about 5 and 8. During school holidays if I was WFH they'd be home and it was fine. Below 5yrs old or maybe below 7yrs old if no older sibling it may be trickier yes especially for the all day. In any event it can still save on childcare in that needing less hours at nursery (for some nurseries it makes a difference - my old one used to charged specifically for drop off before 9am and pick up after 5pm if using the 30hrs free childcare) or nanny etc

The thought that, OMG, people might spend less on travel and lunches, work clothes etc seems a very short termism argument for reverting back to the way things were. Yes, some business models may go to the wall but people will spend on other things and in other ways that fit in with an new working pattern thereby still generating revenue for the government in the form of direct and indirect taxes

I think that's idealistic, unemployment is the highest it's been in 5 yrs & furlough is still propping some jobs up. If the economy contracts it has a wider impact.

Oh and yes no breakfast Club in any event in many cases!

@SATSmadness

The maddening thing is that it could be a game changer for the environment, for many working people's quality of life, for the quality of family life and good in so many ways.

Employers still need to be able to achieve on the job training by having new staff working alongside experienced staff in everyday workplace scenarios. Some employees would suffer emotionally from the withdrawal of contact with their work colleagues.

IMHO what is needed is a balanced approach to reap environmental/social benefits from less commuting but without forcing a total change on those employees left feeling isolated by reduced face to face contact. Could salaries reduce to share the travel cost saving with the employer or wfh be offered instead of a pay rise ? Could the reduction in the need for office space lead to alternative uses being found and some buildings being re-purposed ? Could businesses currently dependent on prime site office space, reduce their costs sufficiently to be able to pass on a reduction in the cost of their goods/services to others ? (not a commercial suggestion, I know )

Sadly though, I suspect that far too many people will be forced back into full time commuting because some (dinosaur) giants of the commercial world are currently vehemently opposed to the idea and shouting their opinions loudly enough to drown out reasonable opposition and coerce a business-centric government into supporting those views.

The thought that, OMG, people might spend less on travel and lunches, work clothes etc seems a very short termism argument for reverting back to the way things were. Yes, some business models may go to the wall but people will spend on other things and in other ways that fit in with an new working pattern thereby still generating revenue for the government in the form of direct and indirect taxes. Other businesses will expand, new opportunities be identified.

We shouldn't be pandering to wealthy institutions/individuals who have looked at their exposure to the business land and premises market or their coffee shop or sandwich shop or fashion chain empire and panicked.

But nor should we pandering to people who want to wfh because it is more convenient for them physically, financially, whatever, regardless of whether it is actually a success for their customers (internal, external or both). No one ever comes on these threads and says hands up, I've not been as productive as normal, and that just doesn't reflect the reality, plenty of people have been and will continue to be less effective from home. Not all by a long shot, but some for sure.

And the sneering over coffee chains etc really irritates me. For starters, these are people with jobs, they might be employed by big corporates that mumsnet loves to hate, but they're still people who probably don't want to lose their jobs. And no one's sneering over the big corporates who are happy to make all their employees wfh regardless of if they want to, because that suits the narrative.

Further to that, someone usually makes some happy little comment that these people can simple get jobs in the other lovely independent coffee shops full of people newly wfh. Well, most independent coffee shops don't want to be full of people nursing a single black coffee all day while wfh. Plus, these independent coffee shops are not necessarily located in the same places as the nasty corporate ones, so it's not as simple as getting a new job.

The issue is that this is a cliff edge change. Yes, if this move to wfh and away from centres like London had happened over time there would have been a gradual shift to the lovely independent coffee shops, with associated relocations in housing, adjustments to transport etc. To expect the country to seamlessly adapt to a sudden change with no casualties along the way is daft and callous.

Finally, the collapse of commerical real estate isn't a great thing for most of our pensions.

I feel sorry for the grads where I work. When I was on the grad scheme, I loved socialising with the others. Any spare ££ from wages would be spent in the nearest bar. Often in a a large group for our lunch breaks, had a forum, strong mentors. Learned a lot about office politics and culture and most of that was during informal conversations during lunch, after work drinks, bathroom breaks etc. Firm contacts and friendships on the way up in the industry.

Now they’re couriered a laptop and work from their parents house. We try and build team atmosphere by doing occasional online Friday drinks. You can’t build up the same type of relationships.

If I was a grad today and you told me I had a choice working in the city with my new colleagues or I can stay at home, it would be a no brainer for me.

Lucky for some. We stress about childcare constantly trying to juggle two kids with 2 jobs and no family help during lockdown. That's been fun. NOT!

theleafandnotthetree

I am not miserable at work, far from it, but still only there for the pay cheque.

I have to be guarded into everything I say or joke about - people get offended about anything these days, I have to be polite, charming, always pleasant, and there are a million places I could be instead of an office.

Work is business, people get awkward when someone else get promoted, people get childish when reminded that they have a job to do.

Being politically correct and getting the best of your team is exhausting. Pays well, but it's exhausting and not my idea of fun.

I will be WFH for the foreseeable til my 2yo is in unpaid nursery but I will try to get into the office once or twice a week/month just to keep in touch with colleagues.

@tentative3 absolutely, it's the bigger picture.

I think a WFH culture is great and school age children are perfectly capable of keeping themselves entertained after a full day of school.

Most importantly, it's much better for the children who are less exhausted as they're getting home at 4 instead of after 6.

As a society, why would we ever want to go back to life as it was?

We will not be that's for sure...

"No one ever comes on these threads and says hands up, I've not been as productive as normal, and that just doesn't reflect the reality, plenty of people have been and will continue to be less effective from home. Not all by a long shot, but some for sure."

Me, I'll put my hand up! I've had good weeks but more bad weeks and feel really de-motivated a lot of the time. It's like a need a shot in the arm of meeting colleagues, clients, encountering real life scenarios in real time. I am substantially less effective and I've a good enough relationship with her to tell her so. I am trying but it's damn hard

...her being my boss

Even as a new grad, I hated the socializing at work. Hated it so very, very much. Absolute worst part of having a job, wish it could be outlawed (I’m not serious) I hated it so much.

The Time of the Introverts is Nigh

@Babymamaroon

I think a WFH culture is great and school age children are perfectly capable of keeping themselves entertained after a full day of school.

Most importantly, it's much better for the children who are less exhausted as they're getting home at 4 instead of after 6.

As a society, why would we ever want to go back to life as it was?

We will not be that's for sure...

As a society, most of us cannot work from home

I'm the decision maker in my office, and I've consulted throughout. I've done wfh before this started, and I actually began to push for it during the school holidays when most of our staff take breaks - it's actually no fun to be the only one rattling around a big office.

Now everyone LOVES it, and they're super productive. Staff relations have also massively improved somehow during lockdown, and quieter personalities have blossomed.

We trialled blended working, and that's what we'll be going ahead with in a much smaller office. A fixed space for half the staff with rooms available for meetings will suit us just fine, and it will allow DH and I to move back to the rural area I'm from to make the longer journey to work fortnightly.

@therealteamdebbie

theleafandnotthetree

I am not miserable at work, far from it, but still only there for the pay cheque.

I have to be guarded into everything I say or joke about - people get offended about anything these days, I have to be polite, charming, always pleasant, and there are a million places I could be instead of an office.

Work is business, people get awkward when someone else get promoted, people get childish when reminded that they have a job to do.

Being politically correct and getting the best of your team is exhausting. Pays well, but it's exhausting and not my idea of fun.

Fair enough, I do get what you mean. Again, I am probably lucky to work in a place where there is a genuinely very good atmosphere, little of the bullshit you describe and where - and I think this is very important - I feel I can be myself. I don't have to wear a work persona, or very rarely anyway. Apologies, you sound great. You still probably wouldn't want me for a colleague though, too much chat and tea

But nor should we pandering to people who want to wfh because it is more convenient for them physically, financially, whatever, regardless of whether it is actually a success for their customers (internal, external or both). No one ever comes on these threads and says hands up, I've not been as productive as normal, and that just doesn't reflect the reality, plenty of people have been and will continue to be less effective from home. Not all by a long shot, but some for sure.

and what about the high majority of people near depressed every Sunday?
sick because of office environment, office politics, fighting over food, smell, heating. People were exhausted, ran down, fed up. Presenteism and showing your face whilst achieving nothing was never good for the business either.

I AM more efficient at home. I can wake up, go for a 30mn to 1 hour jog to wake up, shower and work.
Instead of arriving stressed about running the kids to the childminder, spending 2 hours commuting fighting trains late, cancelled, packed carriages... and already ready to go home before I even started.

No one gave a shit about office workers and commuters in the past, it's time we realise it's better for the economy to treat them better.

And no, I don't care about central London coffee shops, there will be enough tourists anwway, and I do care about my local high street who needs a boost!

@HarryLimeFoxtrot

I hate it, and it looks like we’re expected to do it forever. We might be ‘allowed’ 1-2 days per week in the office. So I’m looking for a new job. I’ll also look to see whether I can afford to drop to 2 days per week. What I will not be doing is working at home. Not ever. I will be working in the office or not at all. WFH is destroying my mental health and making me deeply unhappy. This is not my new normal. The only thing keeping me going was the thought that it was temporary.

That's the thing isn't it everyone is different.

I think the firm's that will be most likely to attract the best talent will be those that adopt the best of both worlds ... Have the tech to be able to work from home ... Mandatory 2 days a week in office but other than that people decide ...some people will do the remaining three at home some will work from the office all week

Not sure about saving on childcare necessarily. DH has been WFH for years pre-COVID and the current situation of kids climbing all over their parents whilst on calls etc. wouldn’t have been acceptable before. It’s obviously more forgiven right now in these times especially with schools closed. Saying that, DH works a very professional job and if you’re paying someone £500 a day you would likely expect children to be looked after, not sat on Daddy’s knee during a client meeting.