AIBU to tell every mother on mumsnet...

[LastRoloIsMine]

We nearly lost the word mother and all that comes with it?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4176497-History-in-the-making-Watch-Parliament-Live-at-2-30pm

The maternity bill wanted to remove the word mother/woman and replace it with pregnant person.
Those words are important and women have fought for a century to be recognised yet we were nearly wiped out in favour of belief not fact.

I wont say "I am not transphobic" like some sort of plea! I dont actually have to I am just fighting for womens rights no need for me to explain myself any further.

Well done to the House of Lords for recognising that language matters. Only women can get pregnant, only women can become mothers.

Sex based rights matter and the words we use in legislation matter because that's how we defend them.

@Mockolate
Would the fact they were carrying a baby in their womb and birth not be the bigger issue with their feeling of identifying as make? rather than the fact the legislation referred to their role as ‘mother’. The one on one care could still be adapted with terms the individual was comfortable with, like for any other individual who might want to be referred to by another term.

@Mockolate a trans man is also a woman. One is gender the other is sex. Sex determines if you can get pregnant and have babies, not gender. How one identifies has nothing to do with the reality biology, and your sex shouldn't be ignored for personal beliefs. Do you not understand how they are two separate things?

I'm getting so lost. Transwomen want to be recognised as women and at the same time transmen are trying to airbrush women from all legislation.
How do we recognise transwomen as women if we refuse to acknowledge women?

For all those who want this thread moved.

NO. I posted it in this topic because I chose to.
I dont have to explain why.

@Thelnebriati

This is nonsense;

8 out of 10 people under 40 will get pregnant within a year if they have sex without contraception regularly

I have no idea whether to find that hilariously ironic or just plain horrific.

You lumped racism and transphobia together.

Almost as if you didn't know what you were talking about. Which is fine, it's (still) a free country.

Respecting a man or woman's right to speak no matter the offence they're causing is a dull and necessary evil of freedom.

It's silly and dull for the rest of us, but thanks for proving my point about cancel culture.

@Pugdoglife

I'm getting so lost. Transwomen want to be recognised as women and at the same time transmen are trying to airbrush women from all legislation. How do we recognise transwomen as women if we refuse to acknowledge women?

If language isn't important, then why are some people trying to change it? And why is it all around women? I don't see the words 'man' or 'men' being replaced.

As a country we are sleepwalking into an era where women's rights will be eroded. And in 10 years time our daughters, who today are saying that it's ok, will suddenly realise what has happened.

This was such an important decision.

The problem is that if you dare voice your preference for your biology to be identified and protected, you're instantly slammed as a TERF and transphobic. It's utterly infuriating.

There is absolutely a need to be inclusive, but not by sacrificing women's biological identity.

I think that's what I find so frustrating. There was initially a big campaign to educate people that gender and sex were different, as they used to be used interchangeably. Gradually everyone learnt that gender identity and expression can be different from your sexual organs. All good. Tolerance, acceptance and understanding was what it was all about.

Then somehow it's been warped. Somewhere along the way it became taboo to discuss biological features of women using words such as female and woman. Despite clearly referring to biological function, and not gender identity or expression. They are two different things and deserve to be treated as such. A transman has female sexual organs (unless they've undergone bottom surgery). It is a biological fact and does not change their preference for the male gender. Biological sex is not gender, and vice versa. Trying to insist otherwise is ludicrous.

@soapboxqueen

To those struggling with why this is important, it's actually fairly simple.

If I say 'some people' are discriminated against in employment, healthcare, the justice system or anything else and it needs sorting, the first thing that should be asked is which people and for what reason.

If my response is just some 'people' are denied access to effective healthcare, some 'people' are denied jobs, some 'people' are denied suitable housing or some 'people' are denied access to justice, how effective do you think the solutions will be?

You can't solve discrimination and oppression against groups of people if you don't know who they are or can't describe them accurately.

Sums it up

@Labobo

I love all the I am not trans phobic people on mn. You are. Do all of you know there's trans people on mn? How awful for them to listen to this rubbish weekly at least.

Sigh. Really we are not all transphobes. Any more than JKR is a transphobe. She's not. I'm old enough to remember this from the first time around. Men at uni coming up to me and asking why feminists hated men. Having to explain we didn't. We weren't campaigning against men, We were campaigning FOR women. For women's rights. For their creation, protection and validation. Why, every time that women fight to protect our status in the world are we told we hate other people? Why are we told our campaigns to protect ourselves are about attacking others. They are not. In the 1980s it was men who thought we hated them for wanting a tiny slice of their pie. Now it's transwomen who think we hate them for not wanting to hand over the tiny slice of pie. I've heard it all before and the iterations are astonishingly similar.

Unfortunately this is only going to get more commonplace as young people are discouraged from critical thinking, are unable to tolerate differences of opinion and debate, and cancel culture is dominant.

Terrifying prospect.

@Labobo
Exactly. Protection of rights is just that.
I also don’t think that those shouting transphobia are speaking for all trans women and men.

The content of all the speeches except the lib dems were including other matters that of necessity need further discussion before whizzing things into legislation that will only make them more obscure. There was a suggestion that certain civil servants have been leant on and converted by Stonewall into true believers and it was rightly pointed out that the H of Parliament draft and make law. This was two afternoons of cracking statements about women and our right to name ourselves as women who are mothers. Why are some people here so keen to remove the words from us ?

@JosieJarker

"Because there's some sort of drive on at the moment to fill all the boards with trans threads." This is not a trans thread. Its got absolutely zero to do with transwomen, seeing as its about a maternity bill. There are a handful of trans men who have given birth. Trans men who give birth are mothers in law. How many have actually done that? 3? 15? No way should we be changing or removing the legal definition that ties a mother to her child for the sake of a handful of peoples feelings.

and this seems to be the issue. The high profile objectors to amending the legislation to use the word 'mother' like Lord Cashman (although he didn't bother to turn up and find out the details) and Lady Barker only mentioned transwomen.

With the best will in the world, we know that TWs are never going to be affected by a maternity bill. This is not about the tiny minority of people who have identified out of their sex but have the bodies that can grow babies.

This is about removing the word woman from being associated with female bodies and functions - to the benefit of whom?? It is part of a concerted campaign already doing this in many many areas of women's health - not men's health. It will ultimately be to the detriment of women.

The other silly thing about this law draft is that men have breasts too.

All humans do, as it happens, but only women can breast feed.

A chest won't feed anything; our new maternity law might as well be referring to a chest of drawers.

You lumped racism and transphobia together.

As in, they are all examples of hate crime.
Equally, but separately.
I didn't compare them to each other.

@Motnight

You mention about the word woman etc being replaced, but not male equivalents.

There was a post on twitter from an organisation which was about rape in women, except they refused to use the word woman or female. They were called out on it, but stuck to their guns, explaining why the use of sex-based terms was so wrong.

Same organisation also then tweets separately about "male rape" and "men who are raped".

Apparently sex-based language is absolutely fine when you're referring to men. It's just women who aren't allowed to use their sex-based identity.

Pretty much sums up what's happening - until today.

@VladmirsPoutine

Nobody would stop you referring to yourself as 'Woman' or 'Mother' or 'Breast-feeding' etc etc

They are having a bloody good try though, aren't they?

Also today we learned that three women’s D V organisations have had mortal cuts to their funding because they do not include males, and people come here and tell us to be more inclusive....just NO.

This is not a trans thread.
Its got absolutely zero to do with transwomen, seeing as its about a maternity bill

Errrrm..... it's about the rights of women and the rights of trans men, why are you bringing trans women into it?
I didn't say it had anything to do with trans women, so why bring them into it?
Do you think trans men aren't trans are something, and trans threads are always about trans women?
Now who's erasing if so

I love all the I am not trans phobic people on mn. You are. Do all of you know there's trans people on mn? How awful for them to listen to this rubbish weekly at least.

Two things: (1) there’s nothing to “listen to” on an internet forum and (2) no intelligent person would continue to visit a site they found upsetting. That’s masochism.

[quote ExhaustedFlamingo]@Motnight

You mention about the word woman etc being replaced, but not male equivalents.

There was a post on twitter from an organisation which was about rape in women, except they refused to use the word woman or female. They were called out on it, but stuck to their guns, explaining why the use of sex-based terms was so wrong.

Same organisation also then tweets separately about "male rape" and "men who are raped".

Apparently sex-based language is absolutely fine when you're referring to men. It's just women who aren't allowed to use their sex-based identity.

Pretty much sums up what's happening - until today.[/quote]
That is appalling. I really hope that we are turning a corner today.

I wonder if we decide to change all the words around religion and race, would that be fine too.

I am Jewish. No you’re a person.
I am African. No you’re a person.
I am Black. No you’re a person.

That feels incredibly invalidating.

I think the world (or those with any sense) realise that it is incredibly important and RIGHT not to shove everyone in a big bucket labelled “person” because our experiences are so utterly different from one to the next.

Why is it important that a black woman gets to explicitly use the words “black woman”? Why not just tell her she only gets to use the word woman or person.

She cannot own her identify because as us non blacks are annoyed by the unnecessary addition of the word black.

In my mind it is abhorrent to take away the words which describe our very essence and experience.

Words are powerful and meaningful and no one is arguing about any other words than those directly attributed to women (adult females).

For those who say “oh get over yourself it makes no difference if it’s woman or cervix haver” - would you say the same to people of colour who wished to protect and voice their identify by using specific words? Are you happy to tell a Jewish person they are no longer Jewish, just a “religion haver”?

Gone off on a bit of a rant.

Just to clear things up.

At no point have I stated this is a trans thread....but its funny how talking about a maternity bill that only affects women leads to me and others being called transphobic....

This is a thread about women's rights.
Specifically maternity rights which unless you are an idiot only affects women no matter how they identify.