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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to tell every mother on mumsnet...

999 replies

LastRoloIsMine · 25/02/2021 22:18

We nearly lost the word mother and all that comes with it?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4176497-History-in-the-making-Watch-Parliament-Live-at-2-30pm

The maternity bill wanted to remove the word mother/woman and replace it with pregnant person.
Those words are important and women have fought for a century to be recognised yet we were nearly wiped out in favour of belief not fact.

I wont say "I am not transphobic" like some sort of plea! I dont actually have to I am just fighting for womens rights no need for me to explain myself any further.

OP posts:
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17
SqeakyHindge · 26/02/2021 12:27

Meant well done

Haffiana · 26/02/2021 12:28

A bill for leave due to pregnancy and childbirth that refers only to “mother or expectant mother” excludes anyone who is not legally registered as a woman and/or is genetically XY male but due to DSD can become pregnant and give birth. These are humans too.

No it doesn't. If they become pregnant they are 'expectant mothers' and if they give birth then they are 'mothers'.

fastwigglylines · 26/02/2021 12:28

Sex isn’t a spectrum. But it overlaps. Like this. With the light blue area being intersex. Not much different from being biracial.

Thank you for this neat illustration of just how much trans lobbyists are misrepresenting reality. Firstly, there's no overlap - intersex does not literally mean between the sexes. All intersex people are either female or male.

And, what's going on with the size of the light blue, intersex segment? Let's put the actual numbers into Excel shall we, and see what they compare and contrast? Oh look, the intersex segment is actually so small we can't even see it! And, there is no overlap.

What does this matter and why are we talking about this stuff on a thread about women's rights? Why indeed.

But this is the thing, in issues relation to women's rights, the government, charities, advocacy groups, NGOs etc haven't been consulting women - they've been listening to people like PlanDeRaccordement. And that's how we're in the mess we're in.

But now, a load of people with influence are starting to pay attention, and are going WTAF is going on here?!

The debate is now open. Thank the lords! And all the women who have spent years campaigning tirelessly to get us here.

AIBU to tell every mother on mumsnet...
AIBU to tell every mother on mumsnet...
InspiralCoalescenceRingdown · 26/02/2021 12:28

If pp want to argue for people with DSDs, they should probably get their facts straight and avoid posting links that don't actually support their posts.

I'm not going to start debunking, but as a starter for 10, Caster Semenya does not have Swyer Syndrome.

CupboardOfJoy · 26/02/2021 12:29

@PlanDeRaccordement Are you a female currently living in the UK?

TheChampagneGalop · 26/02/2021 12:30

@Flapjak

Last Rollos

Are you sure you are a woman?
You cannot just pop in a Uterus and pop out a baby 9 months later.

Human bodies are just the same as Mr and Mrs Potato Head, or at least they are in TRA La La land

It's completely crazy how a small group of people with such a weak grip on reality are able to make such big demands on changes in language. But at least mothers are still mothers now.
fastwigglylines · 26/02/2021 12:30

Oh, damn, I posted my image twice! I was trying to compare reality with PlanDeRaccordement's delusion - here:

AIBU to tell every mother on mumsnet...
AIBU to tell every mother on mumsnet...
CherryValanc · 26/02/2021 12:33

@Thelnebriati

This is nonsense;

8 out of 10 people under 40 will get pregnant within a year if they have sex without contraception regularly

Is the NHS supposed to be in plain English? Giving information that is clear and not ambiguous.

What does that mean?

8 out of 10 people under 40 can get pregnant regardless of the biological ability to get pregnant and regardless of the biological ability of the person who they are having sex with to impregnate them?

So can 8 out of 10 penis-havers under 40 get pregnant within a year if they have sex without contraception regularly with a penis-haver?

Or can 8 out of 10 penis-havers under 40 get pregnant within a year if they have sex without contraception regularly with a woman?

Or can 8 out of 10 women under 40 get pregnant within a year if they have sex without contraception regularly with a woman?

Or can 8 out of 10 women under 40 get pregnant within a year if they have sex without contraception regularly with a man?

ArabellaScott · 26/02/2021 12:35

It is an impresssively sciency looking Venn diagram, though, fast, you have to admit. Grin

Thanks for the actual rational diagram.

Flapjak · 26/02/2021 12:37

@AdHominemNonSequitur i was quoting another poster . We are not demanding to be women, we are and thats it, and should be recognised in law by words that refer to us as distinct from men where it matters.

Its interesting reading historical books and womens voices are rarely heard, we were erased from much of the past , so there is no bloody way that i waving and smiling on people who would gladly erase our voices and existence from the future

fastwigglylines · 26/02/2021 12:37

@ArabellaScott

It is an impresssively sciency looking Venn diagram, though, fast, you have to admit. Grin

Thanks for the actual rational diagram.

Grin
Ori21 · 26/02/2021 12:38

Seriously though - why not talk to women about women's rights and the language they need to preserve those rights now and in the future? It has nothing to do whatsoever with trans rights. One can be in support of both women's rights and trans rights, without endangering either.

Datun · 26/02/2021 12:44

@Erkrie

PlanDeRaccordement thanks, an interesting and very rare case where an xy person with swyer who does not produce ova and has some level of female (and male) reproduction structures, was able to give birth with donated eggs and HRT and considerable help from science. I don't believe this case is a reason however to remove all the language from around women, such as female, mother, particularly as legislation supports this person as a mother anyway.
Exactly.

The term used on the legislation is mother. Not woman. People with DSDs, transmen, etc are all legally covered. Not excluded.

It's my understanding that mother describes a person who gestates and gives birth. It's used in all sorts of other interwoven legislation like the children's act. And confers responsibility of the child, the initial responsibility, on the person who gives birth. That's what the word mother means legally, as far as I'm aware. It's to protect the child.

What struck the House of Lords was that during the debate about the bill and the specific maternity rights and how it would all be worked out, the word woman was used over 300 times. Whereas in the actual legislation it wasn't used once.

A prime example of everyone knowing which sex this involves, and the specific language being entirely necessary to discuss it, using that language to determine the scope of the bill, and then it being written out entirely.

I know it sounds simple, but the phrase if you can't see sex, you won't see sexism is entirely appropriate.

The idea that if you neutralise sex specific words, sexism will disappear, is patently untrue.

Because it's already happening. Men are women, women are men, and lots of people are neither. And all that happens is people that used to be called men get put in a female prison and attack the inmates. Or people that used to be called women no longer have fair political representation. Except now you've lost the words to describe it.

DisappearingGirl · 26/02/2021 12:45

fast great diagram.

I agree with Plan that we should support minority groups however big or small; however I disagree with Plan that we need to change all our language to match the experience of all minority groups.

fastwigglylines · 26/02/2021 12:46

@Ori21

Seriously though - why not talk to women about women's rights and the language they need to preserve those rights now and in the future? It has nothing to do whatsoever with trans rights. One can be in support of both women's rights and trans rights, without endangering either.
Because this debate has been framed from the very beginning as only being about transpeople's "rights"*. When the GRA was being debated, government was told feminists had no issue in the word woman being redefined and there was no point talking to us anyway as it was about trans rights and nothing to do with us.

These changes in wording were no doubt presented as of huge benefit to transmen and NB people but making no difference to women. Sadly for the gender lobbyists, at last people with influence are starting to notice that women do actually have something relevant to contribute to the debate.

*(Rights is in quotes because a lot of this is about demands, not rights. Also if you ask the lobbyists what rights trans people don't have, they can't answer. The Equality Act is a good piece of legislation - although the guidance accompanying it could do with being clearer - and it already protects in law the rights of people undergoing gender reassignment to be protected from discrimination.)

cheeseismydownfall · 26/02/2021 12:48

This is on the BBC right now, talking about today's announcement regarding vaccines for the over-40s:

^"[The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI)]... strongly advises some particular groups to take up a vaccine as soon as it is offered. They are:
-men
-people from black, Asian and minority ethnic communities
-people with a BMI over 30
-people living in poorer neighbourhoods"^

This is a good example of clear language communicating a vital health message to huge, broad audience.

What would happen if to the message if the word "men" was replaced by "People with penises?'

First of all, it would be distort the message, because I don't believe there is any evidence to suggest that it is the ownership or otherwise of a penis that is the direct cause of men being more likely to become seriously ill or die from covid. Related to this is the fact that transpeople who have undergone genital surgery may incorrectly categorise themselves, leading to transwomen failing to understand their personal risk level.

Secondly, it would seriously impact the ability of of the message to be understood by men for whom English is not their first language, resulting in poorer outcomes for this group.

Thirdly, it is dehumanising to men.

Language matters, and when it comes to the subject of healthcare, sex really matters. Both men and women need language that easily and accurately describes their biological reality.

LouJ85 · 26/02/2021 12:48

*This is nonsense;

8 out of 10 people under 40 will get pregnant within a year if they have sex without contraception regularly*

I agree this is a nonsense sentence. However the NHS website doesn't word it that way when I Google it - it says as per as the attached screenshot. Have they now changed it I wonder?

AIBU to tell every mother on mumsnet...
Xoxoxoxoxoxox · 26/02/2021 12:48

Secondly, it used gender/sex neutral language which is standard in legislation

In certain instances, it is applicable to use gender-neutral language, such as 'chair person' where either sex can be in that role, but the word 'mother' only applies to women and so it's incorrect to use gender neutral language.
This debate has re-balanced this gradual broadening of the original intent of the legislation.

Worrysaboutalot · 26/02/2021 12:55

If words don't cause harm, how come we can't call transwomen their correct sex aka men?

Calling person A, a man changes nothing about their rights in law AND changes nothing about the reality of their biology. So where is the issue. Maybe person A should just get over themselves and accept the words we use, as they are logical and factually correct.

So if there is no problem calling a woman a person who gives birth, there should equally be no problem calling a transwoman a man!

Or do words only have meaning when they refer to men's feelings, whereas women's feeling don't matter!

mnaab · 26/02/2021 12:55

I love how these topics are getting more air in AIBU over the past few weeks.

I'm not sure if it's the same op each time but thank you to whoever you are Flowers

cheeseismydownfall · 26/02/2021 12:57

Let us fast-forward 50 years, to a point in the future that medical science has enabled men to have artificial uteruses implanted and to successfully gestate a baby to term.

Do we think that the healthcare needs of pregnant men will identical to the healthcare needs of pregnant women?

Or do we think that pregnant men are likely to also require significant additional support before, during and after birth, such as hormone therapies, in order to achieve a successful pregnancy?

Do we think that the needs of pregnant men and their babies will be best served by failing to differentiate between men and women?

Language matters.

CallMeCleo · 26/02/2021 12:58

Every mammal that ever lived came out of a FEMALE.

merrymouse · 26/02/2021 13:03

There is no equality if you have “woman” specifically called out in a law. There is stigma and being treated like a fragile, special needs not fully human person.

There is only equality if women are specifically 'called out' in law. There will always be a conflict between the need to have specific rights and services that other people don't need, and the potential to suffer discrimination because those specific rights and services are needed. This is the difficult ground that the UK EA 2010 tries to navigate.

Tabitha005 · 26/02/2021 13:07

Women have done just fine with knowing who's being spoken to, or about, via use of the words 'women', 'woman', 'female' etc and now we're being told those words aren't good enough any longer, so they're being replaced. WHO benefits from that?

cheeseismydownfall · 26/02/2021 13:08

There is no equality if you have “woman” specifically called out in a law. There is stigma and being treated like a fragile, special needs not fully human person.

But women are vulnerable because of their sex, in many, many ways. That is exactly the point.

Would you like to explain to a victim of infant FGM that they were clearly just too fragile?