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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to tell every mother on mumsnet...

999 replies

LastRoloIsMine · 25/02/2021 22:18

We nearly lost the word mother and all that comes with it?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4176497-History-in-the-making-Watch-Parliament-Live-at-2-30pm

The maternity bill wanted to remove the word mother/woman and replace it with pregnant person.
Those words are important and women have fought for a century to be recognised yet we were nearly wiped out in favour of belief not fact.

I wont say "I am not transphobic" like some sort of plea! I dont actually have to I am just fighting for womens rights no need for me to explain myself any further.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
BarbaraofKent · 26/02/2021 10:31

Why do people assume that 'equality' means 'treating everyone the same'?

It's critical thinking 101 to know that this is not the case!

persistentwoman · 26/02/2021 10:32

@WholegrainCustard

This whole debate is being framed by people at either extreme telling people on the other side they are stupid. I don't think it's a great – or particularly effective – way to persuade people of your case. Most of us don't know and don't care what term was being used in a specific bill and it's really not going to change the way we use language.

When suffragettes were fighting for the vote there were many women who sat back and didn’t know and didn’t care.
Thank god there were women then willing to speak out.
Thank god there are women now willing to put their necks in the line in order to protect women and children.
The debate as a whole has often been framed as extremists on either side.
Extremists from one side issue threats, “extremists” on the other offer science and facts.

Excellent post.
BarbaraofKent · 26/02/2021 10:33

All it does is create legal challenges in the future when intersex ministers assigned male/man at birth get pregnant or when transmen ministers who have legally changed their identification to “man” get pregnant.

No its doesn't because transmen who give birth are still 'mothers' in the eyes of the law. As I understand it 'mother' is the word on the Bill, not 'woman'.

PlanDeRaccordement · 26/02/2021 10:34

@BarbaraofKent

Why do people assume that 'equality' means 'treating everyone the same'?

It's critical thinking 101 to know that this is not the case!

*I am sure equality does mean treating every minister who can get pregnant and birth a child the same. Not just those with the legal identity of a woman. And the law should be written, not just for today but for the next few generations.
MrsBrunch · 26/02/2021 10:35

@Jenasaurus

So will children be taught in school that a man and a person create a baby and then the pregnant person has the child. Will there not be any facts attributed to the pregnant person having to have a female anatomy? This is bonkers
It's worse than that in schools I'm afraid. Parents are mostly ignorant of the fact that primary children are taught if you like pink and dolls you're a girl and if you like blue and cars you're a boy. Look into Stonewall in schools if you want more info.
LastRoloIsMine · 26/02/2021 10:35

PlanDeRaccordement

As has been stated many times.
To have a law that supports a specific group that group must be named.
People don't get pregnant women do. This bill is sex specific because it has to be. The law deals in facts not feelings. The fact is only women get pregnant and give birth.

All it does is create legal challenges in the future when intersex ministers assigned male/man at birth get pregnant or when transmen ministers who have legally changed their identification to “man” get pregnant.

Wrong.

The law recognises that only women get pregnant and give birth so if somebody who previously believed they were male gets pregnant then clearly they are female. There would be no need for any legal challenge.

OP posts:
Erkrie · 26/02/2021 10:36

It's critical thinking 101 to know that this is not the case!

That has been sadly apparent over the past few years.

PlanDeRaccordement · 26/02/2021 10:36

@BarbaraofKent

All it does is create legal challenges in the future when intersex ministers assigned male/man at birth get pregnant or when transmen ministers who have legally changed their identification to “man” get pregnant.

No its doesn't because transmen who give birth are still 'mothers' in the eyes of the law. As I understand it 'mother' is the word on the Bill, not 'woman'.

That is being challenged right now in the courts by a transman who is fighting to be listed as a father on the birth certificate like his transman partner is already.

“Mother” is a sexist term derived from “woman” anyway, it should be “parent or expectant parent”

grannyinapram · 26/02/2021 10:36

Language does have meaning and changing language (especially in legislation) can have huge effects.

Boroditsky proposes that because the word for "bridge" in German — die brucke — is a feminine noun, and the word for "bridge" in Spanish — el puente — is a masculine noun, native speakers unconsciously give nouns the characteristics of their grammatical gender.

So when asked to describe a bridge, germans used words like beautiful, whereas Spanish people used words like strong.
This is because of the language used.

Orwell wrote a whole book about this sort of thing, although it was called 1984 and not 2021.
The whole point of the book was how changing peoples language can change things. Newspeak and all that.
Language evolving naturally is, well, natural, but when people are forced to change the way they speak, well its an infringement of their rights. Of all of our rights to free speech.

I don't have a problem with people being called whatever they like, a better thing to do would be to ask every person what they would like to be called, like when people ask 'do you prefer David or Dave?' Not hard is it?

Also chestfeeding is sickening. Men and women have breasts. Men don't get chest cancer while women get breast cancer. Men can even lactate! (its a side effect of a medication I was prescribed. I was told by doctor) So breastfeeding being changed to chest feeding is, in my opinion, all down to the sexualisation of breasts. nothing to do with transgender people or whatever they will be called soon.

There was a massive issue when something happened similar in America? Canada? somewhere i can't really remember but I do remember Jordan peterson Rose to fame for speaking out about how he shouldn't be legally forced to say he/she/zee/Zay? something like that?
When I first heard it I thought 'stupid old man, times are changing' but actually I think he is right! Legislation should not dictate our language. we are not in a dictatorship! Language changes over time. If we let this happen what next?

newspeak. thats what.

BarbaraofKent · 26/02/2021 10:38

“Mother” is a sexist term derived from “woman” anyway, it should be “parent or expectant parent”

Oh dear, you over egged the pudding.

Sexnotgender · 26/02/2021 10:40

Why is mother a “sexist” term. It’s just a name for a female parent.

PlanDeRaccordement · 26/02/2021 10:42

The law deals in facts not feelings. The fact is only women get pregnant and give birth.

Yes the law should deal in facts. The fact is that woman is a legal identity which can be changed. There are numerous females with the legal identity of man, not woman. In addition, there have been genetically male intersex successful pregnancies in intersex/DSD people. So scientifically, it is not even a fact that only females give birth.

That is a fact. Another fact is that the bill as originally written did not infringe on any women’s rights whatsoever, but due to the feelings of outrage and the feelings that only those with the legal identity of women should get pregnant, it is proposed to be amended to “mother or expectant mother” Which is even worse.

LastRoloIsMine · 26/02/2021 10:42

PlanDeRaccordement

Freddie lost.
The court agreed that Freddie had given birth therefore was the mother in legal terms.

The word mother is not sexist as it can only apply to 1 of the sexes as only woman can give birth.

OP posts:
LastRoloIsMine · 26/02/2021 10:44

The fact is that woman is a legal identity which can be changed.

The fact remains that only women give birth. Identity does not come in to it. Its biology.

You really hate women and its unpleasant to read the disdain you have for us.

OP posts:
PlanDeRaccordement · 26/02/2021 10:45

I know I’m in a minority opinion group here. But I’m fully a gender abolitionist, which means that all genders and gendered terms need to be abolished. This includes feminine abs masculine terms for the same role. No mother, no father, only parents. No brother, no sister, only siblings. And so on.

feelingverylazytoday · 26/02/2021 10:45

Agree with you, OP.
The HOL sent a clear message that identity politics are not going to overtake biological reality in the UK. Well done to everyone concerned.

LastRoloIsMine · 26/02/2021 10:46

PlanDeRaccordement

Which parent needs maternity rights?

OP posts:
PlanDeRaccordement · 26/02/2021 10:46

@LastRoloIsMine

The fact is that woman is a legal identity which can be changed.

The fact remains that only women give birth. Identity does not come in to it. Its biology.

You really hate women and its unpleasant to read the disdain you have for us.

I don’t hate women. I am a woman. I could say the same to you people fighting to keep women the second sex, the second class citizen, second to men. We won’t be equal until we eliminate these cages of woman and man and are all people/human.n
Erkrie · 26/02/2021 10:47

In addition, there have been genetically male intersex successful pregnancies in intersex/DSD people.

Can you post evidence to this please. Interested to learn more.

PlanDeRaccordement · 26/02/2021 10:49

@LastRoloIsMine

PlanDeRaccordement

Which parent needs maternity rights?

Parents need parental rights. I don’t like the title of the bill “Ministerial and Other Maternity Allowances Bill”. This bill should be combined with the paternity one into a ministerial parental allowances bill. But can’t help that so many are not yet at the cutting edge of gender abolition like I am.
feelingverylazytoday · 26/02/2021 10:49

PlanDeRaccordment so you think people should just pretend humans aren't a sexually dimorphic species then?
It'll never catch on 😂

CatherinedeBourgh · 26/02/2021 10:49

I don’t care. I am a person, as well as a woman. Laws should be drafted as widely as possible, to include all possible situations.

I think the change is silly.

fastwigglylines · 26/02/2021 10:49

There is an attack on the word woman. The wording originally suggested in this bill isn't a stand-alone exception, it is part of a much larger movement which seeks to establish in law and society that the word woman means anyone who identifies as a woman, not actual biological women.

This matters because, without a word to describe the group of people who share female biology and experiences of the world, how can we organise together to defend our rights as a political group?

This isn't an academic argument, this is about practical, on-the-ground stuff.

Currently, if we talk about women's health, for example, we know we're talking about issues relating to having female biology - pregnancy, miscarriage, menstruation, menopause, PCOS, endometriosis, smear tests, etc etc.

What does "women's health" even mean, if the group women includes people with penises, prostrates, testicles etc? The trans lobby say that doesn't matter as you should pick whatever health condition or aspect of biology is relevant, and talk about that e.g. "people with cervices" or "birthing body". But what if you want to talk about - and advocate for or allocate funds to - supporting women's heath as a whole? If there is no word for woman that means biological women - and if group biological women together in any way that excludes transwomen is seen as transphobic - how can you advocate for women?

Similarly, if there is no word for woman that doesn't include males who identify as women, how can lesbians ever expect to have exclusively lesbian spaces? Well, these days they mostly can't. Lesbian dating apps and pubs (what's left of them) are full of males who say they are in the category of women. Lesbians who try to assert their boundaries and organise women only spaces are called and treated like bigots.

More generally, how can anyone talk about women's rights if the word woman includes males? And if it's considered bigoted or transphobic to have any definition of women that means just biological women?

If there is no word for women allowed that means actual women, we cease to exist as a group of people united by a fundamental shared characteristic (being female) and lose all rights gained on that basis.

This is what the gender ideology lobby are fighting for. They want to dismantle sex as a meaningful category and are angry with women who want to organise or group together as biological women, they see this as bigotry.

That's why this is important. The gender ideologists are totally out of touch with reality, but somehow have got a lot of traction and are trying to change the definition of woman in law.

Children and young people are being taught that it's bigoted for women to organise together and that sex is a social construct, not a biological fact. If we don't fight it, it will be coded into law.

LastRoloIsMine · 26/02/2021 10:50

We won’t be equal until we eliminate these cages of woman and man and are all people/human.n

We cannot eliminate biology. It is because of our biology that we are oppressed. Specific laws to protect us do not cage us they allow us to be recognised and protected. The Maternity rights allow women to access appropriate healthcare continue employment and fight discrimination. Why do you think that should be removed or available to men?

OP posts:
MrsBrunch · 26/02/2021 10:52

@CatherinedeBourgh

I don’t care. I am a person, as well as a woman. Laws should be drafted as widely as possible, to include all possible situations.

I think the change is silly.

If you do nothing, by the time you do care it will be too late.