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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Karen and the Generational Divide

730 replies

LucilleBluth · 23/02/2021 13:01

My very good friend kept sending me TikTok videos via whatsapp and told me to get on it. I resisted but last week I decided to have a look what it was all about.

Now I’m 40, friend is 42, both white and degree educated with teenagers and primary aged DCs. It would seem that according to this app that middle aged white women are the actual devil. I’m from a working class background and friend is MC.

I’ve never seen younger people be so vitriolic against people they don’t know. It’s definitely misogyny and ageism but dressed up as being woke???

I can’t quite figure out why or where it’s coming from. Any sociological explanation for this?

OP posts:
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14
TheBuffster · 23/02/2021 22:29

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows I'm sorry that happened to you and I am sorry some people think your voice doesn't matter.
It matters. You matter. Flowers

VladmirsPoutine · 23/02/2021 22:29

@FrostyChocolateMilkshake I find it so bizarre that you think if people were to replace those articles with "Black" then people would somehow find it horrific! Wow!!

LexMitior · 23/02/2021 22:30

This isn't Chairman Mao - taking criticism is usually done by unreasonable people very poorly. In classifying "middle aged women in a mood who are white" as somehow synonymous with "unreasonable" and therefore I can insult them.

Whoever met a really unreasonable person who did better when insulted? Never. Its done to bate people. Punching up or down, who knows? Seems like both depending on the answers here.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/02/2021 22:30

@Nothinglikeachocolatebrownie oh but white women just moan about trivial problems and not real issues, I thought?

You can't NOT make this personal when you bang on about women, most of whom experience complex harassment, abuse and violence at some point, being privileged.

SusannaSpider · 23/02/2021 22:30

If you don't act like a dick then you won't be called a Karen and you'll have no problem it's very simple

It's pretty shit if you are called Karen. I frequently get sniggered at by 20 somethings when I have to give my name or show ID. It's just bullying and bloody unpleasant, people thinking they are current, using convenient shorthand...no, it's just brainless parroting of social media and blatant mysogyny.
I'm always polite, considerate and friendly, unfortunately people using Karen as an insult aren't.

GCAcademic · 23/02/2021 22:31

It's a bunch of highly privileged middle class people, getting a thrill out of denouncing other middle class people for being middle class. It does nothing to help anyone. It's just a cheap thrill for the self-righteous.

That basically sums up 99% of social media "activism".

Nothinglikeachocolatebrownie · 23/02/2021 22:31

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow interesting point and I agree, although I think there is a racial element to the Karen meme. It's not just about class and sex.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/02/2021 22:33

[quote Nothinglikeachocolatebrownie]@MissLucyEyelesbarrow interesting point and I agree, although I think there is a racial element to the Karen meme. It's not just about class and sex.[/quote]
Not any more and certainly not in the U.K. stop pretending it is. And stop pretending all white women cannot experience high levels of discrimination just because another group of women experience 'more'

NiceGerbil · 23/02/2021 22:34

The idea seems to be from some quarters that calling women in USA and UK and ??? will somehow reduce racism in the USA (and other countries?) and reduce USA police brutality against black men (what about police brutality against black women in the USA by the way?).

Is that the idea?

Or, is it something to do with a certain type of white woman being just generally a horrible person? A bit like the stuff over here about school mums driving their kids to school in big cars, that sort out thing?

They're quite different things.

In the first case, general violence and police brutality against black men in the USA. (What about the women?).
Who does this? The police it seems fairly mixed. Which says something about whatever the police are learning in their training. The violence in general. Men.

So here we have a load of women arguing about this and that (to the point of being told that 'karens' are worse than neo Nazis) and while we bicker, the spotlight is per usual not on men.

The people who commit the vast majority of violent crime in the world.

It doesn't make sense. If anyone is protected it's men, all of them, because whatever has happened, you can bet there's a woman to blame somewhere.

It's easier to blame women though, who have less power, whether that's through politics, money, social standing etc. And tell them if they say hold on a minute then they are this type of woman. The one who is responsible for all the ills of the world. And meanwhile the whole world seems next to incapable of holding men to account for anything.

It's an interesting dynamic.

And it's interesting that people can't see it.

The conversation about racism in the USA, is the context of their history, their police behaviour, their prison system, their social structures, the roles that white women and men have to play in all this are very important.

Calling white women in any number of countries a Karen because she parks her car badly is not going to help any of this surely?

Does anyone really think it will?

FlowersAreBeautiful · 23/02/2021 22:37

@augustusglupe

I'm 56 and you've just said what I've felt very uncomfortable with for ages. Yes, they're a nasty bunch. The hashtag 'Be kind' brigade are actually more judgmental and small minded than any generation I've known.
Absolutely this. The anonymity of the internet has helped to create this.
MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 23/02/2021 22:37

@GCAcademic

But people listen to her opinions because she is white.

Yeah, no one listens to middle aged women. They'll listen to you while you're at the fuckable age, but after that forget it. Honestly, middle age is going to hit some of you like a ton of bricks.

And the whole Karen insult is about the very opposite of listening to women. It's about shutting them up. You only have to look at how pervasive it is to see just how invested society is in shutting up women of a certain age.

You have got to wonder about the intelligence of people who can look around them at a world where:

men own 70% of the wealth,
men commit 90% of violent crime, and 98% of sexual crime,
every country on Earth has a pay gap between the sexes,
many countries do not give women equal legal or political life,
almost the entire UK government is men,
most countries have never had a woman leader

and think, "Yeah, the problem here is middle aged women" .

KeepWashingThoseHands · 23/02/2021 22:38

No such thing as age privilege? So why do we have age discrimination legislation and sex discrimination legislation etc. in this country. That’s the very definition. Ask anyone nearing retirement if they’ve been subjected to age discrimination and check the response.

Why are people on this thread continuing to use a well known name to discuss the debate around it. Honestly can’t believe it.

LexMitior · 23/02/2021 22:38

No. It is just very, very easy to do.

Nothinglikeachocolatebrownie · 23/02/2021 22:38

[quote JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows]@Nothinglikeachocolatebrownie oh but white women just moan about trivial problems and not real issues, I thought?

You can't NOT make this personal when you bang on about women, most of whom experience complex harassment, abuse and violence at some point, being privileged.

[/quote]
I'm saying the meme is about white women who complain about trivial issues. Not that you or all women complain about trivial issues. Not that I agree with the meme. I'm just saying that I understand the meme to refer to a certain type of woman.

When I use the word 'privilege' I'm referring to the concept of 'white privilege' because the meme relates to only white women.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/02/2021 22:40

You have got to wonder about the intelligence of people who can look around them at a world where:

men own 70% of the wealth,
men commit 90% of violent crime, and 98% of sexual crime,
every country on Earth has a pay gap between the sexes,
many countries do not give women equal legal or political life,
almost the entire UK government is men,
most countries have never had a woman leader

and think, "Yeah, the problem here is middle aged women" .

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

I want this on a t-shirt!

LucilleBluth · 23/02/2021 22:40

I work with some of the most deprived children and young people in the country...all white. Last year I worked with a child who had been the victim of CSE, they would frequently come into school after self harming, left for me to deal with, the trauma was indescribable. I see incidents like this every day in my line of work. Most people have no idea what the underclass in the country is like.

Not one child I work with is privileged in any way shape or form. I understand racism, but the term white privilege is very problematic. It’s an academic term that gets misunderstood.

Also we are not the US. Karen needs to die.

OP posts:
FrostyChocolateMilkshake · 23/02/2021 22:41

[quote VladmirsPoutine]@FrostyChocolateMilkshake I find it so bizarre that you think if people were to replace those articles with "Black" then people would somehow find it horrific! Wow!![/quote]
You have totally twisted my words. I am NOT saying the articles should be about black people so white people aren't offended.

It is the inequality between white and black, women and men. Why can articles and social media get away with launching attacks on certain groups of people? That's what I meant.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/02/2021 22:44

Well I'm not sure what circles you move in @Nothinglikeachocolatebrownie but I don't know any women like this who moan about library books or whatever. They're too busy moaning about sex discrimination, suffering from PCOS with no help from their GP, being abused, the gender pay gap, the gender disparity at home and other sex based problems.

Men on the other hand...I spent my student years working as a waitress.... the 'Karen's' were 99% men - between the groping, moaning, screaming at me, demanding refunds and asking to speak to the manager, I personally find men are far and above treat worse of the sex. Why I am even trying to argue the toss with obtuse misogynists I'll never know

VladmirsPoutine · 23/02/2021 22:44

and think, "Yeah, the problem here is middle aged women".

The two are not mutually exclusive. I am very knowledgable about the dire state/circumstances of women around the world. But that doesn't detract from me pointing out that a certain type of white woman - henceforth known as a Karen - poses risk albeit of a different nature which in and of itself can be very traumatic/violent in a particular way.

Proudboomer · 23/02/2021 22:45

How are these women complaining about trivial issues?
And what type of woman does it depict? Apart from middle aged and white? What is wrong with being a middle aged white woman that makes them all fair game to have Their photos turned into an insult and put down

Karen and the Generational  Divide
Millenialcunt · 23/02/2021 22:45

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows What happened to you is horrific & no one should ever go through that. Your experience is not made any more or less valid than a non white woman who has been through the same thing.

No one said white women don’t experience harassment, abuse or discrimination just because non white women also experience this, but with racism added as well. That doesn’t take away from the white womans troubles. No it’s not a competition & yes women in general get a pretty shitty deal generally, but to not acknowledge that the experience is still different for non white women is when you’re not checking your privilege

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/02/2021 22:45

@FrostyChocolateMilkshake don't bite, Vladmair has form for purposefully twisting words

ItsIgginningtolooklikelockdown · 23/02/2021 22:47

[quote Nothinglikeachocolatebrownie]@ItsIgginningtolooklikelockdown I'm not talking about that specific woman, I'm talking about the Karen meme. Ie: a 'Karen' is a person who complains about ...

I'm explaining what I understand the meme to mean.[/quote]
But the meme had a woman running and a joke about Karen. Tell me how the woman running was exhibiting any kind of privilege or making a complaint.

LucilleBluth · 23/02/2021 22:47

VladmirsPoutine I’m beginning to think that you’re a goady wind up merchant tbh.

OP posts:
JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 23/02/2021 22:47

@Millenialcunt there ARE people who claim white women make up allegations about black men. These are labelled Karen's.

How do you think that makes people like me feel who have been raped by black men? Or do I need to check my privilege before I think about it?

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