Karen and the Generational Divide

[LucilleBluth]

My very good friend kept sending me TikTok videos via whatsapp and told me to get on it. I resisted but last week I decided to have a look what it was all about.

Now I’m 40, friend is 42, both white and degree educated with teenagers and primary aged DCs. It would seem that according to this app that middle aged white women are the actual devil. I’m from a working class background and friend is MC.

I’ve never seen younger people be so vitriolic against people they don’t know. It’s definitely misogyny and ageism but dressed up as being woke???

I can’t quite figure out why or where it’s coming from. Any sociological explanation for this?

@poppyzbrite4 I agree 100% with your last post. The issue for me is, when it becomes about something else (which it has) it derails the original conversation. You mentioned intersectionality - that obviously is something worthy of a LOT more discussion - not only among black women (who for obvious reasons are well aware of it and have been discussing it for a long time) but also at the way sexism and racism interact (and I would argue support each other) at all levels of society. There is a hell of a lot of nuance in the roles we all play within that. (For example, a white woman in a society that is both patriarchal and racist can try to gain advantage for themselves by acting up to stereotypes of white femininity. At best that reinforces sexism, at worst it puts black people in danger of their lives e.g. Amy Cooper. It fucks over everyone basically except that individual women and racism/the patriarchy.) But we arent talking about that anymore. Already the original voices behind the BLM movement are being washed out in a chorus of internet bro's making fun of women for being older, and having voices/attitude. If you think a 20 year old man laughing at "Karen's on holiday" is somehow going to help then you are being manipulated.
If people had been complaining that the Karen meme was rascist I would have disagreed. But most people are saying it is sexist, and that it is.

[quote VladmirsPoutine]@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows In the main white women don't face adversity and discrimination because of their 'whiteness' whereas non-white women... do.[/quote]
Hence why the Karen meme is NOT rascist. It is however sexist. That is still a problem.

But you're weaponising age in particular.
A white woman of a certain age.
Not bangable then.
God, how can you not see the misogyny? It's dancing naked wearing a choppy Bob.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

Is being assertive and asking to see the manager related to privilege or skin colour? I wouldn't have thought so as I see assertive women from all classes and colours. Many black and Asian women or working class women have had to get used to fighting for their rights, and don't have the luxury of being passive and staying quiet. And it's actually a good thing for a woman to be genuinely assertive and polite whilst doing it

Good point. The posters who claim to be so concerned about racism should realise that anything weaponised against women generally is always weaponised 10 times as hard against non-white women.

Exactly! You've hit the nail on the head.

I doubt these types of TikTok trolls care about people of colour. That would require empathy, which your typical basement dwelling troll does not have.

I'm obese. I get yelled at by strangers on how ugly I am and get told am a drain on the NHS. Do people who do this shit actually care about the NHS or my health? Nope. Because bullies don't have empathy.

It reminds me of something I witnessed on public transport once. A very fat woman was sitting in the priority seat when a man with learning difficulties got on. A slim lady sitting across the aisle started screaming at the fat woman to get out of the priority seat to let the disabled man sit down. Fat woman replied she was disabled herself and the slim lady started screaming that she didn't care about the fat lady, she cares about the disabled guy. It was bullshit. She didn't care about the disabled man. She didn't even let him speak up for himself. How do I know she didn't care? Because she was a bully. And bullies don't care.

I’ve just seen people jumping on the victim bandwagon without checking their own privilege first

Check your privilege is just the latest way of telling women that they're not allowed to want their own rights until everyone else in the world has got theirs.

Usually trotted out by someone white and middle class.

@debbrianna

My comment about shooting up schools and getting sympathy was a gerelised sympathy white people give to one another that they do not do with other cases that involve non-white people. I see the post about karen progressing in that way. Excusing behaviuors by coming up with reason is not even funny becusee thry put other people's lives in danger. The danger is the men. No one ever had sympathy for Shaniqua and her babies..maybe she had postal depression. No ! She was just ghetto.

Who is Shaniqua?.I don't recall that case.

I would just like there to be a manager.. seriously. It is horrible how retail shops
And food outlets staff their places with underpaid youngsters and don’t have anyone in charge and responsible.

My TikTok is full of Mums dancing with their kids, or singing parody songs about parenting, some couples dancing and singing too, and some people dancing at work. Also a few weight loss journeys. If there is anything misogynistic I skip straight past, and over time the algorithm now fits with my likes pretty well.

There is such a thing as white privilege.

There isn't such a thing as female privilege, or age privilege. There just isn't.

It only applies to a certain type of woman behaving in a certain way

It really isn't. It's more and more used by men to put women down for speaking out, standing up for themselves, asserting themselves. I hear it most often from men who claim that "Feminism has gone too far", "Women hold all the powerful positions", "She got the job because of box ticking", "My fucking ex-wife ruined my life. It's not my fault I had the affair(s)"

It gives mediocre men a trope to blame for their lack of success and for their misogyny.

I haven’t fully read the whole thread, skimmed it but I find the title totally offensive and am surprised it’s not been requested to be changed. Swap ‘Karen’ for any other derogatory word with meaning and that’s not ok - so why do you think this is?

Disgusted tbh. Do you know anyone called Karen - can you imagine how they feel reading this?

Reported.

[quote VladmirsPoutine]@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows In the main white women don't face adversity and discrimination because of their 'whiteness' whereas non-white women... do.[/quote]
In other words...

White women deal with sexism

WOC deal with sexism AND racism.

Of course!

But why does that make misogyny of the Karen meme ok? And it doesn't mean white women don't experience discrimination. Just not as much discrimination of WOC. But guess what...it's not a competition

@LadyWithTheBraid

There is such a thing as white privilege.

There isn't such a thing as female privilege, or age privilege. There just isn't.

Spot on

@LadyWithTheBraid true, but the lack of sympathy for 'Karens' is the fact they are privileged by virtue of being white, middle class etc, and a lot of them DO have an entitled attitude. Of course no stereotype accounts for every individual circumstance but it's a stereotype because a lot of people from that background act in a certain way. People are offended by lots of things, being called a Karen isn't really anything new, it's just a new term made by the internet, and if it makes entitled white women check their privilege, then good!

Anyway, we can all play a fun game. If someone wants to complain about sexism they can be accused of not understanding how privileged they are becaus they are white. So sexism/mysigyny goes unchallenged. If someone wants to complain about racism someone ELSE can come along and point out that actually many cultures are very sexist and we need to talk about that (WHat about the women that the men you are defending opress). So no-one gets to talk about that properly either. So round and round and round it goes, everyone fighting with each other and then everyone wonders why change is so slow. And yes, while I am very grateful to the changes previous waves of feminism brought there was a problem that a lot of 70s feminism excluded black women. I think that seriously damaged the movement and progress (see also Liberal Feminism at its most extreme which says if its good for one individual woman its feminist.) But that doesnt mean its OK to let vitriol towards women just for being women (and middle aged) slide. If someone is racist criticise them for that. If they are sexist criticise them for that.

[quote Nothinglikeachocolatebrownie]@LadyWithTheBraid true, but the lack of sympathy for 'Karens' is the fact they are privileged by virtue of being white, middle class etc, and a lot of them DO have an entitled attitude. Of course no stereotype accounts for every individual circumstance but it's a stereotype because a lot of people from that background act in a certain way. People are offended by lots of things, being called a Karen isn't really anything new, it's just a new term made by the internet, and if it makes entitled white women check their privilege, then good![/quote]
But the assumption is that they acting this way from entitlement. How can we be sure of that? Maybe they act nasty to everyone?

Also most middle class people have worked hard for their wealth and therefore don't feel any more entitled than working class women. I think maybe you mean upper class or rich women? Middle class isn't rich unless you compare it to a developing country.

Middle aged women represent a problem for society - no longer willing to put up with crap at a time when society deems them irrelevant, so most likely to assert themselves Yes.

DD12 has been noticing language in tv and film lately, she asked me what slut shame meant. We had a discussion about most descriptors of people relating to sex are female based. She's not amused Yes, and this is also why women need to stop using the c word as well You're not "reclaiming" it. Have we never wondered why it's the worst possible swear word? Worse than prick or dick.

[quote Nothinglikeachocolatebrownie]@LadyWithTheBraid true, but the lack of sympathy for 'Karens' is the fact they are privileged by virtue of being white, middle class etc, and a lot of them DO have an entitled attitude. Of course no stereotype accounts for every individual circumstance but it's a stereotype because a lot of people from that background act in a certain way. People are offended by lots of things, being called a Karen isn't really anything new, it's just a new term made by the internet, and if it makes entitled white women check their privilege, then good![/quote]
Sure, but why not call out all entitled people?

Who is calling out the entitled women of colour?
Who is calling out the entitled men?
Who is calling out the entitled young or the entitl d and elderly?
The entitled working or upper classes? The entitled homeless people?.the entitled aristocrats?

Entitlement is a human issue. Anybody can be entitled.

There is such a thing as female privilege based on race.

most middle class people have worked hard for their wealth and therefore don't feel any more entitled than working class women

This is probably for another thread but I live in a very aspirational middle class area and they are far more entitled and judgey than richer people are who feel no need to stand on their status.

If the criteria is that you can insult someone to check their privilege, where does that stop?

That sounds like "I can say this, they deserve it"?

Those bad people.

Exactly right @apalledandshocked. And it's the naiveté of banging on about intersectionality while shouting down women protesting about misogyny. Do these people not understand what intersectionality means? Anything that harms women in general will harm women of colour more. It's the very opposite of a zero sum game.

Middle class isn't rich unless you compare it to a developing country.

This thread has produced some of the wildest takes on this topic! I thought we'd already peaked but alas...

@poppycat10

Middle aged women represent a problem for society - no longer willing to put up with crap at a time when society deems them irrelevant, so most likely to assert themselves Yes.

DD12 has been noticing language in tv and film lately, she asked me what slut shame meant. We had a discussion about most descriptors of people relating to sex are female based. She's not amused Yes, and this is also why women need to stop using the c word as well You're not "reclaiming" it. Have we never wondered why it's the worst possible swear word? Worse than prick or dick.

Definitely. And oddly, very few people actually have the warmth or depth to actually be a cu&t.

@poppycat10

Middle aged women represent a problem for society - no longer willing to put up with crap at a time when society deems them irrelevant, so most likely to assert themselves Yes.

DD12 has been noticing language in tv and film lately, she asked me what slut shame meant. We had a discussion about most descriptors of people relating to sex are female based. She's not amused Yes, and this is also why women need to stop using the c word as well You're not "reclaiming" it. Have we never wondered why it's the worst possible swear word? Worse than prick or dick.

Sadly,am in the wrong demographic to be a Karen. But if I were a middle aged white woman then I think I would own the Karen thing proudly. I would reclaim it and turn it around.

Assertiveness is something women have fought for. The right to be heard and treated as equal. I would reclaim.It and wear with pride.