Karen and the Generational Divide

[LucilleBluth]

My very good friend kept sending me TikTok videos via whatsapp and told me to get on it. I resisted but last week I decided to have a look what it was all about.

Now I’m 40, friend is 42, both white and degree educated with teenagers and primary aged DCs. It would seem that according to this app that middle aged white women are the actual devil. I’m from a working class background and friend is MC.

I’ve never seen younger people be so vitriolic against people they don’t know. It’s definitely misogyny and ageism but dressed up as being woke???

I can’t quite figure out why or where it’s coming from. Any sociological explanation for this?

Perhaps rather then being upset by the term ‘Karen’ you might want to question why white middle aged women, call the police on black men who a simply walking in the park and pretend their being attacked, prevent black men from entering their own apartment blocks, stop black children from entering swimming in pools, try to block black people from driving down ‘their’ road, call the police on a child for swelling water, call the police on black family for having a bbq (in a area which permits bqqs!), the list is endless.

I accept that this appears to be a phenomenon in the US, where it is directly linked to a history of segregation which many on the Right would seemingly be keen to revive. In the UK, I am not aware of white middle aged women trying to stop Black people driving down their road or entering the swimming pool. This is yet another example of American political or activist language being imported into our culture and grabbed eagerly by the sort of people who revel in misogyny, in order to shut women up. Thanks to social media, there is a lot of unthinking importation of American activist language into this country where it often doesn't quite fit with our history and social reality and therefore lacks credibility or is exploited to other ends. It doesn't do anyone any favours, least of all the people it was intended to help in the first place.

A lot of the people I've seen using the term Karen on Facebook, incidentally, happen to be racist as well as sexist. That should tell you that the term is not being used in the way originally intended..

Calling sensible older women with confidence wrong or Karen or or witch or mad or whatever the insult is as old as the hills.People want us to be invisible when we aren't 16 and sexy in short skirts or whatever as we have out lived our purpose at the hands of men. Men can be frightened of women asserting their rights.

Throwing racism in the mix is a red herring used to keep women down. 98% of people in Northumberland are white (where I am from). 3% of people in the UK are black (and 12% not white). Whilst I agree there is racism and sexism everywhere it is really really not accurate that the Karen insult in the UK is an issue about racism.

However no one should be rude. If the shop does not return the defective goods then I would be more likely to send a legal letter to head office or sue than have some kind of melt down and lose my temper. Why did we get our holiday deposit back last summer? Because I am a reasonably competent lawyer and have some life experience and knew to write to head office quoting the section number and law and writing by special delivery post. If that is a Karen move then I exhort everyone young old or black or whiete or male or female to be that Karen or learn from Karen.

Also to all the people saying the whole ‘Karen’ thing is not helping racism, well no shit. I don’t think anyone on here has said that it is, even once? I don’t understand your point though

@Millenialcunt

Also to all the people saying the whole ‘Karen’ thing is not helping racism, well no shit. I don’t think anyone on here has said that it is, even once? I don’t understand your point though

I think the problem is

1. It is not helping racism
2. It is reinforcing mysogyny particularly towards older women

If we can agree on those 2 points then I dont see what we are even arguing about? Why did you come onto this thread to defend it?

@Millenialcunt

Can you provide links for the examples you quoted of this happening in the UK ?

You want me to provide quotes from every person in the UK who has experienced racism..? 😂 Please don’t take this as an attack but this is a perfect example of privilege ‘I don’t see it so it must not exist’. If you know anybody who isn’t white you could always ask them if they have ever experienced racism in their life, if you don’t then I don’t know what to suggest

No. I want you to show me where the black children were prevented from entering a swimming pool in the UK because they were black .

If we can agree on those 2 points then I dont see what we are even arguing about? Why did you come onto this thread to defend it

don't forgot saying you don't like it also makes you racist or implies you don't care about racism.

I disagree with every woman of a “certain age” being called a Karen and disagree with it being used as a way of undermining women. But I do think there is a certain type of middle class, middle aged woman who do seem to be unnecessarily irritable and who treat service workers appallingly.

I work in retail and I dread these types of customers. They’ve definitely become more common over the past few years and Covid seems to have tipped many of them over the edge. Small inconveniences cause them to have massive temper tantrums and they love to rant and rave at people they consider to be “below them”.

A few months back, I made an honest mistake at work. I apologised to the “Karen” and rectified my mistake, yet she kept on ranting at me, called me a “little bitch”, dragged other customers into it, made a big scene and then complained to the manager. This isn’t an uncommon occurrence but it’s rare for a man to act in the same way. Middle aged men are just more likely to make pervy comments!

I think Gen Z and those on TikTok are more likely to be younger and work in the service industry, and so they have lots of similar experiences and have become wary of these types of women.

FWIW they also hate “boomers” (usually used to describe men) and “chavs”.

Us white women just don't have any damn thing else to think about, and that's God's honest word.

To be honest being white is at least one less thing to worry about for them.

Er, if you don't think it's about fighting racism, why all the talk about white women stopping black children swimming and how saying "Karen" will prevent this?

That's funny! How worthy is your racist experiences. Examples required before it can qualify.

@VladmirsPoutine

Us white women just don't have any damn thing else to think about, and that's God's honest word.

To be honest being white is at least one less thing to worry about for them.

Agreed, they're unlikely to be shot in their beds whilst sleeping for a start.

I'm seeing lots of young black women on YouTube call out racism, and for whatever reason, being able to call the perpetrator Karen or Ken to their face gives them strength.

I think empowering young black women to speak out against racism is the priority here, rather than my hurt feelings as a 40 yo.

[quote Millenialcunt]**@Millenialcunt - well, there’s no better way for me to check my white privilege than taking it on the chin when white blokes using terms like this to give voice to their own sexist and ageist prejudices, is there?

The two things aren’t mutually exclusive. Just because they’re wrong for their behaviour doesn’t mean Karens aren’t also wrong for theirs[/quote]
No, I didn’t mean to suggest they were. A shorthand used by black women to describe a particular gendered racism they have been on the receiving end of is a far cry from the widespread adoption of that term for putting women back in their place.

But the former use has now been eclipsed by the latter, hence why women don’t like it. I don’t even read it as necessarily having anything to do with racism any more.

I’m legit not even arguing 😄 I agree it’s not helping racism but I don’t necessarily think it’s reinforcing older women stereotypes either as they’ve always existed and no, I don’t agree with them. I think like England101 said, it’s bringing light to something that has always gone unnoticed/under the radar before

@Millenialcunt

Are you in the US? If not, why are you appropriating the US racial connotations of the Karen meme? It simply does not have the same connotations in the UK.

The fact it keeps being brought up that this happens ‘only in America’ is part of the problem. If you’ve never experienced racism you wouldn’t know it exists, many of the same issues they have happen here they’re just much more subtle, which not knowing or understanding is just one part of the privilege. I don’t expect most people to agree with me but you can’t deny the experiences of non white people across the country who have all experienced the same levels of discrimination through their lives as many in the US

No one has said racism only happens in the USA. What people have said here is that racism manifests differently in different locations and polities, and that a crude attempt to apply the specifics of one location/polity to another may backfire when local people who (as you have said) do NOT directly experience racism are accused of attitudes and cultural tropes that simply do not ring true.

When one tries to import, wholesale, the racism that exists in the US to the UK, you get pushback in the UK because it rings false to people. You then run the risk that people who would have understood and supported a stand against UK racism will reject your call to action or see it as distanced "solidarity" or even posturing because it makes no sense to them, or doesn't feel relevant from a local perspective.

Believe me - I have rung doorbells and passed out fliers in Glasgow asking people to come out and speak out and yell about the treatment of Sheku Beyoh. I got not one tiny fraction of the support for Sheku that happened -- in Glasgow!! - for people to come out and protest against Trump, or against the killing of George Floyd. No problem with people showing solidarity to Americans against Trump, or telling US embassies and consulates how we feel about Floyd's murder - but let's also talk about how blacks and other non-indigenous people are treated in the UK. It's not the same dynamic, and little kids who have never gone outdooors insisting on US norms do real and lasting damage to anti-racist work in the UK and the wider world.

But I do think there is a certain type of middle class, middle aged woman who do seem to be unnecessarily irritable and who treat service workers appallingly.

Totally, one of my aunties is dreadful for this, I have wanted the ground to swallow me whole on a number of occasions. She's not white though.

Er, if you don't think it's about fighting racism, why all the talk about white women stopping black children swimming and how saying "Karen" will prevent this?

Who said that saying Karen will prevent this? The point is that it shows up people behaving disgustingly &/or ridiculously for what they are

"The two things aren’t mutually exclusive. Just because they’re wrong for their behaviour doesn’t mean Karens aren’t also wrong for theirs"

Exactly we can call out racism & misogyny at the same time.

The point of Karen is to disrupt the line of learning from one generation of women to another and to destroy potential lines of solidarity.
Absolutely love this.
I can remember wishing the ground would swallow me up any time my mother complained about something in a shop to cafe (or indeed, just asked for something a bit particular, like milk on the side). She was never loud or rude but I wanted to be invisible, basically. Fast forward 30 years and I basically am my mother. I hear other women too saying they give a lot fewer shits about what people think of them, trying to conform etc as they age.
But this is clearly dangerous behaviour from a woman so we need to coopt a situation from another continent and appropriate it to keep women under the thumb. Fantastic.

@Chocolatechocolatechoate

I know I'm gonna be shot down here but oh well. I really don't see a problem and I think a lot of people on here love to play the victim. Karen isn't an insult for EVERY middle aged woman. It's an insult given to a woman that displays very specific horrible behaviour. Like if you've received bad service and want to make a complaint that doesn't make you a Karen. But if your harassing people or going of for no reason then yeah you're a Karen and you deserve to be called out for that behaviour If you don't act like a dick then you won't be called a Karen and you'll have no problem it's very simple

What if Karen or Kevin is your actual name?

But I do think there is a certain type of middle class, middle aged woman who do seem to be unnecessarily irritable and who treat service workers appallingly

No worse than any other age or "class" category. Admittedly richer people tend to be more entitled, but mainly on the roads, I find. They think because they have an expensive car they genuinely deserve more road space.

Anyone who makes the "Karen" insult be more about age, hairstyle, wanting a different burger etc is completing undermining its possible use as a "call-out" for racism to the point where I can't see how anyone thinks it is a useful strategy against racism, in the U.K. at least.
It is emeshed in misogyny and ageism.

@Chocolatechocolatechoate

I know I'm gonna be shot down here but oh well. I really don't see a problem and I think a lot of people on here love to play the victim. Karen isn't an insult for EVERY middle aged woman. It's an insult given to a woman that displays very specific horrible behaviour. Like if you've received bad service and want to make a complaint that doesn't make you a Karen. But if your harassing people or going of for no reason then yeah you're a Karen and you deserve to be called out for that behaviour If you don't act like a dick then you won't be called a Karen and you'll have no problem it's very simple

I think you are a bit behind the times.

Any woman, anywhere, can be called a Karen, whether they are "behaving like a dick" or simply existing. It's the new "bitch".

If you don't act like a dick then you won't be called a Karen and you'll have no problem it's very simple
This is untrue. Twitter is awash with Karen memes and comments that have nothing to do with behaviour. A picture of three middle aged white women with "Karens on holiday" for example.
Calling them out for bad behaviour? Hilarious? Fighting against racism?
Pull the other one.

I’m not sure about the Karen/racism connection. So now the woman shouting at the manager is also by virtue of being white and middle aged a racist.

The confusion probably does come from that fact that we aren’t in the US.

I sometimes get the impression that the people that throw racist around don’t actually know any real life BAME people. Working class people have always shared spaces with minorities. My auntie married two black men (not at the same time) and I have four mixed race cousins, I grew up with then and know their struggles, most of which come from being working class and northern...add being black and it’s doubly difficult to get by. I’m not sure what Karen has to do with it though.