Sex in marriage. Different views

[Iwonder08]

I've seen quite a few posts about different attitude to sex between husband and wife/partner. They might involve various issues, but essentially come to the fact that they have different sex drive.
I've heard a lot of banter from men talking about their wives along the lines 'trying for a second baby was the only way I could get laid' or '' marriage is the best way to kill your sex life' (I don't approve of such banter but it is not the point of this post).
Here on MN I often see the comments about what women consider unreasonable expectations or worse, various sex offences. Before I go any further I absolutely without any doubt support the fact that no person should have sex when they don't want to. However people seem to have different views on things like:

• A man looks at his wife when she is getting dressed/undressed. I saw comments in various posts saying a man must be sex obsessed and a pervert
• A man touches his wife, let's say bottom. It is always labeled as groping and again, it constitutes a sex assault

-A man tells his wife he wants to have sex, she turns him down. If the request is repeated a man is labeled a sex pest

• A man wants to have sex every day/most of the days - he must be a sex addict.

Quite often the posters recommend to LTB if any of the above is present. Another frequent scenario is a woman complains about her other half, but then casually mentions they had no sex for a year. I am genuinely interested - do women and men in 21st century have such a different view on sex in a committed relationship even though the absolute majority had sex before they got into this relationship? Do women make more effort to have sex more often even when they don't want it at the beginning of the relationship? Or do they lose interest after? How can a man initiate sex if all the above are considered inappropriate? If he just waits until a woman does, what about seduction, is not important? With the exception of temporary physical issues (childbirth, operations, pains etc) does a woman fully expect to stay in a relationship without sex/infrequent sex?

AIBU - nobody should expect regular sex in marriage by default
AINBU - it is unreasonable to expect the other partner to settle for unsatisfactory/infrequent /non-existent marriage

This is a complicated question. I tend to think that no one should expect that they will always have access to sex in their relationship, or in some cases ever have it; and that married couples should be committed to having sex in the relationship unless they both agree not to.

But generally I think marriage is like that. It's not a contract or about assertions of rights and can't function healthily that way, it's about a relationship where you both want to do what is best for your spouse. So things which in one sense seem contradictory can both be true.

Are you a journalist? Why all the questions?

We're all different.
Obviously if people are coming on to mumsnet to complain their OH are doing things they don't like, from slapping their arse to watching them undress, then its something they are uncomfortable with and need to have a talk with their OH and if that fails and nothing changes I can see why they come on mumsnet to ask advice.
I personally love my DH watching me, touching me and being interested in me. If he asks and I refuse he'll leave it a few days, and vice versa, sometimes I initiate. We have 2 young children and DH works nights/early morning, so we are tired alot anyway. If he stopped touching me I'd be upset, or if he was too busy looking at his phone to watch me undress, I'd be a bit upset.
You can't use mumsnet, the place people mostly come to complain (especially AIBU) to compare any relationships with anyone, it's just not a fair view.

No, I am not a journalist. I've just seen quite a few posts recently on the subject with some views that I found surprising. I would like to understand better if they are in fact the majority

1. I think that women actually get bored of the same sexual partner sooner than men do.
2. Women with children are more tired and resentful from caring the mental load and doing the bulk of the work whilst also feeling very unappreciated.
3. The orgasm gap

@Crikeycroc

1. I think that women actually get bored of the same sexual partner sooner than men do.

1. Women with children are more tired and resentful from caring the mental load and doing the bulk of the work whilst also feeling very unappreciated.
2. The orgasm gap

I actually think this is remarkably bang on the money.

I agree whole heartedly with @Crikeycroc.

I've always been of the view that if a relationship is mutually agreed to be monogamous and for the long-term, then it's absolutely reasonable to conclude that your partner is committing themselves to be your exclusive sexual partner, and therefore is entering into an agreement with you that they will attempt to meet your sexual needs where appropriate.

What form that takes, and what is deemed acceptable sexual behaviour within a relationship is entirely at the discretion of the individuals involved, and we all have different ideas about boundaries and what we accept as reasonable. I do not accept claims that any man who watches his wife undress is perverted, or that touching is sexual harassment, or that requesting sex makes anyone a 'sex pest', but I absolutely do agree that if these things are inappropriate for you as an individual, then of course, you are well within your rights to deem them as unacceptable within your relationships.

People can leave relationships for any reason they choose, so I think that if any of these behaviours cross your line in the sand, then they are perfectly valid reasons for you to leave. However, given that I also believe meeting of sexual needs is a reasonable expectation within a monogamous relationship, I also think it's perfectly reasonable to leave a relationship because your partner withholds sex, has no interest in sex, or does not want you touching them, watching them, or requesting sex.

All of these things are perfectly reasonable sexual behaviours in my opinion, but other people will disagree because other people have different boundaries and different lines in the sand. I don't think it's either realistic or reasonable to resent people simply for expecting their needs to be met by the person who entered into an agreement to do so, but over time people can change. The fundamental thing for me, is that it's unreasonable to expect people to live without their needs being met, or refuse to do your part in that, but then still expect the unfulfilled party to abide by the terms of your agreement when it's actually you who has moved the goalposts.

Again, I don't view any of the specific behaviours described as unacceptable, in fact, for me they're a significant part of my own sexuality and I absolutely expect them if I'm going to deem my relationship sexually healthy, however, I totally accept that other people will take a different view. I do find it odd that some people suggest that requesting sex is being a 'sex pest' when that's within a monogamous relationship. Is the requesting party simply supposed to deny and repress their sexual urges indefinitely, until such time that the offended party signals that a request would be accepted? What if that time never arrives? Of course, nobody should ever feel they are being pestered or harassed constantly for sex by their partner, but then, if you don't ask you don't get, and I take the view that feeling pestered is a sign of incompatibility, not that the requesting party is deviant or unreasonable. The same with touching and watching. Sure, there are times and places where it's inappropriate and undesirable, but in the correct setting I think it's lovely and endearing when my partner gives me a playful smack/squeeze/tickle, it's reciprocated, we both enjoy it and regard it as something that's natural and normal. If you don't appreciate it, perhaps you shouldn't be with someone who does?

Sex drive is not a constant, set in stone thing. Small children hanging off you all day, get them in bed and then it's the husband's turn. I found that I couldn't stand any more touching some days. Breastfeeding killed my sex drive dead, my husband touching my breasts made me feel repulsed.
These feelings pass, things improve and strong relationships can weather the storm. It's unrealistic that things will stay the same as they were in the early, pre-children years of a relationship.

@Crikeycroc 👍🏻

As a lesbian with straight friends, the lack of sexual satisfaction many straight women experience means that sex is of little interest to them.
It is usual in lesbian relationships for both women to orgasm every time they have sex.

@Crikeycroc has it

The fact is that there’s a difference between wanted and unwanted sexual contact.
Touching your partner with sexual intent while they are cooking the tea and they have been stuck in the house all day with kids, cleaning/tidying, dragging them out to the shops/park etc can be unwanted sexual contact. When this happens frequently it becomes tedious and sex pest type behaviour.
If that same person is happy and receptive to touching then that’s fine. It really depends on the context and the behaviour of the recipient. It’s generally not hard to read the signs if you bother to take notice.

**1. I think that women actually get bored of the same sexual partner sooner than men do.

1. Women with children are more tired and resentful from caring the mental load and doing the bulk of the work whilst also feeling very unappreciated.
2. The orgasm gap**

My ex of 6 years never ever made me orgasm, or put in any effort to. He would not touch me or kiss me, oral sex was off the cards ( for me). And he wondered why there were other things I'd rather be doing 🙄

I've always been of the view that if a relationship is mutually agreed to be monogamous and for the long-term, then it's absolutely reasonable to conclude that your partner is committing themselves to be your exclusive sexual partner, and therefore is entering into an agreement with you that they will attempt to meet your sexual needs where appropriate.

I agree with this. I don't think it is reasonable for either partner to decide they are not having sex anymore / infrequently and expect the other to be ok. I think it's quite selfish actually if you have committed into marriage then withdrawn t
It. I don't think children should be used as an excuse either. It feels a bit like using a man's sperm to get your babies and then deciding that sexual purpose is done now. Yes you are a bit more tired but now you have brought children into a relationship it's vital to do everything to maintain that relationship and family unit.

Honestly some days I might not be totally in the mood but always enjoy once started. I wouldn't if I really didn't want to.

1. I think sex is important in a marriage and it is ‘part of the deal’

1. Men who share the household chores get laid more, possibly because women are less tired, but also because they feel valued news.cornell.edu/stories/2016/08/want-more-sex-split-household-chores

1. I think our attitudes to sex in the UK suck and we should be encouraging and teaching people how to have good sex. Too many people are crap at it and so it can be boring and uncomfortable. People need to learn how to give each other mind blowing orgasms. If a woman is guaranteed an orgasm she’s more likely to want to have sex.

1. People need to be aware of the benefits of good sex. It promotes good sleep, it can be a workout or at least burns a few calories, it increases feelings of calmness and wellbeing, and helps reduce stress, it increases closeness to your partner, and it makes them feel secure and wanted. My DP describes it as a ‘hard reset’.

1. Of course nobody should be having sex if they don’t want to, but if your partner isn’t happy with that they are more likely to look elsewhere. It is cruel to expect someone to give up sex and avenues should be explored to increase libido before giving up on sex altogether.

I think you have to be careful with generalisations to men an women as there are individual differences.

But some things are probably generally true. I think whether you have children or not is a significant issue in this. As pp's have said women are way less likely to enjoy and want sex I'd they're exhausted from domestic work.

It blows my mind there are still loads of women who aren't expecting an orgasm every time. Obviously this is in no way their fault but just they've had so much crap sex they don't see it as a given. Also that many men don't seem to see it as a given.
So it's understandable why some women aren't interested. I think in these circumstances the men should reflect on that rather than complain about how little sex they get.

Was chatting to a male neighbour once and he said ''After marriage sex goes right downhill''

A good looking couple I know said after marriage sex also dwindled to Once a year!!!!!!!!

I was askance at that.

My own marriage....Once we were married, boom, sex became really rare.

I read once that Marriage is the death knell of a sex life.

Clearly not with all couples, but with many.

Sexual compatibility is soooooo important.

DC seem to kill a sex life, too....

After talking to various couples where the man has seen his partner give birth, that it ''Put him off sex'' with her, out of squeamishness.

The blood and pain, and placenta ..I'd never advise a man to watch in case it adversely impacts on their sex life afterwards.

After talking to various couples where the man has seen his partner give birth, that it ''Put him off sex'' with her, out of squeamishness.

A man i used to work with said watching his wife give birth was like watching his favourite restaurant burn down

@SparklyGlitter95

**1. I think that women actually get bored of the same sexual partner sooner than men do.

1. Women with children are more tired and resentful from caring the mental load and doing the bulk of the work whilst also feeling very unappreciated.
2. The orgasm gap**

My ex of 6 years never ever made me orgasm, or put in any effort to. He would not touch me or kiss me, oral sex was off the cards ( for me). And he wondered why there were other things I'd rather be doing 🙄

He sounds utterly crap.

@CarolVordermansBum

*After talking to various couples where the man has seen his partner give birth, that it ''Put him off sex'' with her, out of squeamishness.*

A man i used to work with said watching his wife give birth was like watching his favourite restaurant burn down

Oh my goodness.................

What a terrifying analogy.

I wonder if it is the raw ''Animalistic'' side of birth that puts some off...

DS watched a tv programme where a group African Tribal women took many male partners as per norm in their Tribe and were adamant that no man should be near the birth of any baby.

@Wiredforsound

1. I think sex is important in a marriage and it is ‘part of the deal’

1. Men who share the household chores get laid more, possibly because women are less tired, but also because they feel valued news.cornell.edu/stories/2016/08/want-more-sex-split-household-chores

1. I think our attitudes to sex in the UK suck and we should be encouraging and teaching people how to have good sex. Too many people are crap at it and so it can be boring and uncomfortable. People need to learn how to give each other mind blowing orgasms. If a woman is guaranteed an orgasm she’s more likely to want to have sex.

1. People need to be aware of the benefits of good sex. It promotes good sleep, it can be a workout or at least burns a few calories, it increases feelings of calmness and wellbeing, and helps reduce stress, it increases closeness to your partner, and it makes them feel secure and wanted. My DP describes it as a ‘hard reset’.

1. Of course nobody should be having sex if they don’t want to, but if your partner isn’t happy with that they are more likely to look elsewhere. It is cruel to expect someone to give up sex and avenues should be explored to increase libido before giving up on sex altogether.

Mostly this, not quite so sure about number 2, sounds like you are trading sex for housework.

But In marriage and LTR, life gets in the way and sex is the thing suffers the most, followed closely by the marriage/ relationship, once the sex has dried up, I think that’s probably the beginning of the end for some people

Edit:
Think the African women are from the Wodaabe Tribe.

In my marriage vows I promised to commit for better, for worse, in sickness and in health. I didn't promise to give sex on demand. People stop wanting sex for many reasons. Health, age, low sex drive, being disappointed in your partner for any reason. Many women need to feel supported and nurtured to have sex, emotions are important. If you are arguing, ir supporting someone through depression or anything that makes them hard to live with, you may not feel like sex.
Marriages are partnerships. You build a life together, love alongside each other, invest in houses, children maybe... you go through the mundane, the highs and the lows. It is more than just sex. I would never leave someone I had committed to over sex. Great sex is fun, but expecting that to last for decades is probably unrealistic.

This is a massive generalisation, but I think it's biological. We carry the babies. We breastfeed them. Our ears and brains are wired to wake in the night for them. We, mainly, stay at home and care for them.
We. Are. Exhausted.
And a huge number of men do as little as they can around the house and carry no mental load. Even if both adults work FT.
Also, men seem to want to get emotionally close to their wives through sex. Women want to get emotionally close first before wanting sex. So when a woman wants a man to notice her, to listen to what she says, to see what needs doing before bing asked, but instead gets groped while she's doing four jobs at once...