Sex in marriage. Different views

[Iwonder08]

I've seen quite a few posts about different attitude to sex between husband and wife/partner. They might involve various issues, but essentially come to the fact that they have different sex drive.
I've heard a lot of banter from men talking about their wives along the lines 'trying for a second baby was the only way I could get laid' or '' marriage is the best way to kill your sex life' (I don't approve of such banter but it is not the point of this post).
Here on MN I often see the comments about what women consider unreasonable expectations or worse, various sex offences. Before I go any further I absolutely without any doubt support the fact that no person should have sex when they don't want to. However people seem to have different views on things like:

• A man looks at his wife when she is getting dressed/undressed. I saw comments in various posts saying a man must be sex obsessed and a pervert
• A man touches his wife, let's say bottom. It is always labeled as groping and again, it constitutes a sex assault

-A man tells his wife he wants to have sex, she turns him down. If the request is repeated a man is labeled a sex pest

• A man wants to have sex every day/most of the days - he must be a sex addict.

Quite often the posters recommend to LTB if any of the above is present. Another frequent scenario is a woman complains about her other half, but then casually mentions they had no sex for a year. I am genuinely interested - do women and men in 21st century have such a different view on sex in a committed relationship even though the absolute majority had sex before they got into this relationship? Do women make more effort to have sex more often even when they don't want it at the beginning of the relationship? Or do they lose interest after? How can a man initiate sex if all the above are considered inappropriate? If he just waits until a woman does, what about seduction, is not important? With the exception of temporary physical issues (childbirth, operations, pains etc) does a woman fully expect to stay in a relationship without sex/infrequent sex?

AIBU - nobody should expect regular sex in marriage by default
AINBU - it is unreasonable to expect the other partner to settle for unsatisfactory/infrequent /non-existent marriage

I think that the reason a lot of women begin to get bored of sex is that men often begin to get lazy both with housework / childcare and sex.

If more men shared the physical and mental load AND put in the extra effort required to please a woman in bed then both men and women would be happier within a marriage. Men don’t need a great deal of effort to orgasm themselves and reading on here, I see many husbands roll on pump away and roll off.

The more effort both parties put in the more both get out.

DH likes a bum-squeeze and will linger if I’m getting changed. This doesn’t make him a sex pest/pervert because I enjoy it too. It makes me feel loved/wanted and I 100% do the same to him too. We’ve been together 11 years, I still think he’s really hot, and if you look up “love language”, both of ours is mainly touch.

The problem comes if a partner (either sex) is making advances, the other partner is rejecting them and they continue anyway. It’s not just about consent (allowing it to happen) but enthusiastic consent (actually enjoying it and communicating that).

DH does have a higher sex drive than me, so sometimes I’ll bat him away rather than reacting positively, and he will immediately realise that his advances are not welcome and stop. Neither of us is offended by that and it works for us both.

Some women would always hate to be touched without prior warning/consent and that’s okay too - doesn’t make me or them weird, just different. But it’s about your partner respecting how you feel and acting accordingly.

I think it's a combination of how (very generally) women's sexual enjoyment isn't seen as equally important; the existing stereotype that sex is something women do 'for men' (and that by extension they don't really like it); and, where relevant, child rearing/unequal mental load.

So you end up with a woman who isn't getting off every time she has sex and subconsciously has been taught since she was a teenager 'letting' boys do X or Y, becoming uninterested in sex that feels transactional or boring. Plus in some cases the stress of domestic life and it not being equally balanced.

When you read on the 'how often do you have sex' threads of the couples who are still at least a few times a week, they're always the ones reporting having good sex.

We should be teaching women and girls that their enjoyment is important, and that they're allowed to want sex on its own merits, not just to be accommodating for their boyfriends, and that the household load should be shared equally. I think that would result in people having better sex and women not feeling like once they get into a long term relationship that they've taken everything on, therefore sex being another chore they just don't want to complete.

You are asking the wrong questions and missing the point op.

You very very rarely read about women whose husbands/partners are supportive and respectful complaining about being touched, or looked at while they are getting changed. It tends to be women whose husbands give very little emotional/physical support expecting sex and then sulking when they don't get it. The sulking and creating a horrible atmosphere in the house make women feel they have to let men do what they want and this creates resentment.

Yes, women's sex drive does often drop temporarily after having children but I think it's often men's attitudes that cause the most damage.

Also think it's interesting that sex between two women has the highest satisfaction rate but that 'lesbian bed death' is still very much a real thing! So not just about the interplay between men/women. But still possibly a result of how women are socialised to view their role in sexual relationships...

It's such an interesting question. When I think about the dips in my own sex drive and DH it's not really been about the sex itself. He put on A LOT of weight a few years ago and I'm ashamed to say it but I really went off him physically, I didn't enjoy him being on top of me and I felt smothered. It also affected his confidence and he wouldn't approach me for sex often. It's a cliche but communication is so important and not being shy about what you want. My sexual preferences have changed over time so I tell him! We are both looking the way we want atm and sex is amazing. I'm currently 11 wks pregnant though so I'm prepared for a lot of changes that will make this difficult.
Expecting orgasms is an odd one as in theory that is the goal but if you are someone who has a hard time getting there it can be really off putting to watch someone almost visibly straining to get you there. I orgasm 95% of the time but those times I don't are usually because I'm tired/certain medications or I couldn't quite get in the zone. I still enjoy the feeling of sex so I don't see it being a massive problem if it doesn't happen. I do sometimes think it's weird that everyone considers sex to be 'over' when the man cums... Maybe if it was the other way around we'd all have better sex

Some women’s sexual identities exist only to please men. No one has encouraged them to work out what they really enjoy so sex is a favour for the man. Once the relationship hits a bump, the favour is withdraw.

It’s a cultural problem: women aren’t comfortable with asking for things, aren’t comfortable with their own bodies and don’t see examples of sexuality which are made to please the female gaze.

Abuse and sexual assault are constantly being declared on mumsnet. It does no one any favours.

It is an interesting question. I am a woman in a relationship with a man who no longer wants to have sex with me. Have been celibate for several years now. I don’t want to split up my family, I also don’t feel in the headspace to have an affair, but I don’t want to live without sex forever. I have tried talking to him but got nowhere. I also tried discussing splitting up but he doesn’t want to either. I feel trapped and frustrated and confused to be honest. But just focus on my DD for now and hope for the chance to meet someone else when she is older.

There are a steady stream of threads here where the OP has discovered their DH is having an affair. Very often they will say “ we don’t have sex but he’s been so understanding about it” or “ we have mis matched sex drives “ or a phrase of that sort. If you are the person who has celibacy thrust upon you then there’s a good chance you’ll think about going elsewhere to get that need met. Think about it.... maybe not do it but think about it. It’s really only a small step from there to being unfaithful. Whole websites like Ashley Maddison have evolved to allow people in unsatisfactory sexual relationships to meet each other so you have to think it’s not an uncommon situation. No one in a sexless relationship should be surprised if their partner goes outside the marriage to get their needs met. It’s an unpopular view here but reflects the reality of the situation.

I think a lot of men are not very good at sex, or they start off okay and then go downhill once they've got their feet under the table so to speak. If anything they've actually gotten much worse as feelI've gotten older, become more 'porny' and pushy. It makes me
For me the best sex I've had is when the man has made me feel
'Seen' as in- actually talk to me and have fun together, laugh at each other's jokes

A few posters mentioned girls from a very young age are taught to see their sexuality only as pleasing men rather than enjoying sex themselves.. Where do they get it from? Any parents of teenage daughters here? Do you talk to them about sex apart from safety aspect?

*it makes me miss being much younger and having a lad put all his energy into making you happy and getting to know my body slowly rather than just bashing away at me like a porn star

I think everyone makes more of an effort at the start don't they? I would love my partner to do all the things you mention but he's the one who can't be arsed!!

@Iwonder08 what's your experience? So many questions.

@scentedgeranium - my experience is what I thought was typical. Relatively small number of partners, some bad sex, some good, no abuse. Happily married with a regular and satisfying sex. The reason behind my question was a lot of comments I saw on different threads effectively criminalising male behaviour which I consider perfectly normal. I genuinely want to understand if my view is different from an absolute majority

@CarolVordermansBum

*After talking to various couples where the man has seen his partner give birth, that it ''Put him off sex'' with her, out of squeamishness.*

A man i used to work with said watching his wife give birth was like watching his favourite restaurant burn down

The old ones are the best as they say. Robbie Williams famously said the exact same except IIRC restaurant was ‘pub’

Long term relationships are about give and take, compromise - these are qualities that we tend to lack these days!

As controversial as it sounds, I do think sometimes it's the right thing to have sex even though you aren't really in the mood to please your partner, especially if it's been a while (I don't mean if you are ill etc) meanwhile it's also the right thing to communicate with your partner as to why you aren't interested, be truthful whether it's the kids, work or simply they need to come to be earlier!

Remember sometimes you are simply bored of each other! With exh it had dwindled to monthly at best but with dp it's 3+ times a week.

Oh and nothing wrong with a bit of groping, the only time I told him it wasn't appropriate was when I was dealing with boiling oil making samosa!

I think it's something you should both make an effort to make time and space for in a relationship. You don't have to be banging away every spare minute, but a sexual relationship is part of a marriage, otherwise you are just friends.

It's impossible to say what is and isn't appropriate behaviour regarding touching and looking, all couples will have their own boundaries which they should both be happy with. I've been married for 12 years and we've been together for even longer, of course type and frequency has changed over time, I expect it will continue to change.

It’s a bit of a misrepresentation to simply call it simply ‘criminalising male behaviour’ op.

I’ve read most of the threads you’re referring to and there were additional issues in the relationship on every single one.

As pp said, the DH is very often well aware that the op isn’t really feeling it (for a wide range of reasons including exhaustion, illness and generally feeling fed up if being treated like a servant) but carries on making advances regardless, and then sulks and behaves really badly when they don’t get their way. Also there was a DH who was increasingly trying to make his wife do various rough ‘porn’ style sex acts that she didn’t really want.

It’s great for you that you have a wonderful sex life and a husband who treats you well, but holding all the other (frankly awful) partners on those threads to the same standards and crying ‘poor menz!’ is a bit

I think it comes from the division of labour in those relationships. The woman is exhausted and touched out from working, looking after kids, cleaning the house and cooking, then her husband swans in for his dinner and a shag. I can imagine resenting my husband and not wanting to have sex with him if that was my life.

I think people think that they're entitled to sex in a marriage without having to work to make the other person feel good.

If your husband or wifes sex drive has plummeted then you should see it as a sign they're unhappy and you should be looking at why that is and what you can do to make them feel better in themeselves, not complaining that you dont get enough sex.

Gone right off sex since menopause- it just hurts and makes me tense which makes it worse.
But even before that l could happily go without - think the longer you are with someone, the less fun it is and not saying DH isn't great or anything but quite frankly l would rather go to sleep when l go to bed.

@Mummadeze same here. We split in November 2020 after 11 years of celibacy. Very lonely, and my emotional needs weren't being met either. I thought I could tough it out until the DC had grown up, but over lockdown, tensions and dv with my ds got in the way and dh decided to go, for everyone's safety. Sending strength to you. No one wants to break up their family do they?

You're a man, OP?

Some male behaviour is criminal. They just think they can get away with it because they're in relationships with their victims.

@hailtomyteeth I am a woman . Interesting, why did you think I am a man?

I presumed a man too. 🤷‍♀️