AIBU to think that people on the lowest wages are imminently set to get financially clobbered in order to foot the bill for keeping the discretionary spending economy up and running ...

[PlebianDreams]

... even though they don't have the means to participate in it?

Tax credits and UC already announced as being cut, council tax up as well, no other tax changes announced as yet. So as of April the only targeted public revenue measures are a) one that reduces the income of already low income households and b) one that is regressive ie not linked to earnings.

We're told that we'll all need to pay for this but so far at least the payment is hitting the lowest paid hardest. This is consistent with "paying" for the financial crisis thirteen years ago when top up benefits were cut and then frozen for twelve years.

Same as then, this is to prop up an economy that people on this level of income have no meaningful way of participating in. As such it's probably a pragmatic move but it feels a bit shitty. What do you think?

Everyone will be left fighting over the scraps. Looks like it's already started

The price of food has increased over the last 5 years IMO it is unaffordable to lots of families already other than value pack tasteless brands.
It is going to be very hard choosing to heat or eat in the winter.

@Emeraldshamrock

The price of food has increased over the last 5 years IMO it is unaffordable to lots of families already other than value pack tasteless brands. It is going to be very hard choosing to heat or eat in the winter.

100%

It made me cry seeing more and more people having to rely on food banks.

Gas/electricity going up as well.

I think this is what the point of the post but its gone a bit west.

@Emeraldshamrock

The price of food has increased over the last 5 years IMO it is unaffordable to lots of families already other than value pack tasteless brands. It is going to be very hard choosing to heat or eat in the winter.

I’ve kept household accounts for decades , and my basic foods have gone up very little over the last 5 years. I’m in England.

Oh joy! Another thread set up to encourage people to dislike one another.

@PlebianDreams

You know what, I'm done.

This site is supposed to be by parents for parents.

It's kind of always been by the middle for the middle class though.

I mean I know this, so not quite sure why I even started this fucking thread. As though any fucker on here would understand it. As though any fucker on here would even half engage with notions of structural inequality or indeed anything that goes beyond "well I'm quite happy OP, why aren't you".

I guess it doesn't matter much because no fucker who has any influence at all is going to be troubled at the thought that there are lots of vapid clueless middle class arseholes spouting lots of vapid clueless middle class crap on a website for self identifying vapid middle class arseholes. And the world will turn.

So much vitriol for the “middle classes” but who do you think’s paying for your UC? compare the amount of tax you pay with the amount you receive in health care, schooling, UC, child benefit etc and see if you’re really the one paying back all the money that’s been spent to furlough (which is to protect the workers not the restaurants).

@SnackSizeRaisin

Hehe OP you obviously aren't poor. £1200 a month is plenty of money to afford to eat at a nice restaurant once a month. My partner and I each earn that much. We are not entitled to any benefits. As key workers our jobs were not affected by covid. We have a nice home and everything we need. (Also, we are middle class). Don't be so condescending!

I think people have a different view of middle class tbh.

I pay more than that in taxes. Your annual salary is £14000 a year which isn’t far of minimum wage. Your combined income is £28000 a year which is just a bit more than what I pay for both my dc to go private school.

And I still consider myself to be working class.

@Doomsdayiscoming I’m quite baffled that you consider a joint household income of £70k as low income. We currently earn a bit less than this between us, and I wouldn’t consider us low income at all.

We have a 4 bed house, car, can afford to eat and heat the house, have takeaways and a cleaner,(!) and even manage to go on holiday (pre Covid) and save.

Yeah this ks exactly the problem i have with the class vs class in the uk. No one really knows who is which!

@Hammonds, if you’re paying £28k for private school and paying over £14k in tax, I would hazard a guess that you are middle class (but possibly still consider yourself working class as you came from a working class family)

@ArmchairTraveller

And this is how the rich have always flourished, by setting the lower classes at each other’s throats. Because otherwise it’s revolutions and guillotines.

Totally agree! We will all be affected apart from the small percentage at the very top!

[quote Lolastarsandstripe]@Doomsdayiscoming I’m quite baffled that you consider a joint household income of £70k as low income. We currently earn a bit less than this between us, and I wouldn’t consider us low income at all.

We have a 4 bed house, car, can afford to eat and heat the house, have takeaways and a cleaner,(!) and even manage to go on holiday (pre Covid) and save.[/quote]
Roughly where do you live?

Am I now considered "the older generation" at 43? I agree with those who are saying that the impact depends on income before, income after and resources available to cope. A single parent with a mortgage losing their already low paid job and having to rely on universal credit will struggle far more than a couple on say £100k each with lots of savings losing one job. Obviously these are extremes but the general point is that those whose situation is already precarious should be the most worried.

We have been offered a sweetener in our wages this month and I know it's because they are going to freeze wages for goodness knows how long.
Everything is rising except wages. The tories don't care about the poor (well none of the parties do actually) but still expect us to pay for everything and you're right OP we never get the benefit.

@Doomsdayiscoming in Scotland. So, money does go far. Are you in London? If so. I wouldn’t say that you personally are low paid, it’s just that you are unlucky enough to live in one of the areas of the world where property prices are ridiculously high

"The economy is utterly skewed towards those who are rich, those who are hoarding wealth and have done for generations."

And what do you think 'those who are rich' do with the hoarded wealth?

Do they pile it up and count it from time to time? Do they stick it under the mattress? Do they buy stocks and shares - ie invest in businesses which can then grow and employ more people? Do they directly employ people themselves - drivers, cleaners, gardeners, nannies, hairdressers, etc etc? Do they open their own businesses and employ people? Do they buy a lot of goods and services from providers where they are, providing manufacturing jobs, or at least importing and packing jobs, sales jobs, service jobs, restaurant jobs, taxi driver jobs?

I've met some really rich people. They have homes in several countries. They send their children to private schools, often boarding. Their idea of living in a particular country is not the same as ours - if they feel that one country is squeezing them too hard, they have no problem with ceasing to live there as we would. They simply check out the tax rules and make sure they don't spend more than x nights in that country. Moving house is no upheaval, they just spend more time in y than in z, the children's schools are unchanged. So attempting to soak the rich doesn't work, they just slide off, taking their spending with them. And there aren't very many of them, so say 10% going makes a big difference.

People forget there are regional variations for income and outgoings. As regards Covid it hits everyone. Some might say those at the very bottom ie unemployed are least affected as they are in the same position. Some Miiddle Classes will have been furloughed and on capped income or made redundant and may not be able to afford school fees that they pay and have to remove their kids from schools. It has affected them differently to you maybe but is still affects them potentially in a greater way.

It has been shit for everyone in different ways. Less so financially for me but I have 3 kids varying from 28 to 19, who had A levels cancelled and has deferred uni, one waiting to buy a property and one recently graduated and in a fill in job because where he intends to work cannot do their assessments yet.

It is not a competition as to who is having it rougher. Everyone has been affected and we will all be paying.

the only people who are taking a hit to their household income are the lowest paid

Absolute bullshit. Our household income has taken about a 50% hit in the last 12 months due to base pay cuts and lack of bonuses. Many, many of my friends have had to take pay cuts and they are not low earners.

And don’t even get me started on the self employed. Many of whom would not be considered low earners but have been totally fucked over by lack of support.

@MissyB1

The public sector and the poorest in society, those are the ones that always pay the price under the Tories. One of the reasons the NHS has struggled so much the last year is because of the under funding over the last 12 years. Austerity left it in terrible shape. I have no doubt Bojo and his mates will kick the NHS and Schools in the teeth.

And during this pandemic, it's been absolutely clear society can't do without either.

I agree with OP that it will be the lower income households that will bear the brunt of the taxation. Below is my reasoning and definitions.

I think we have to define what is lower income and what is middle income because the according to the ONS, the median disposable income*of a nonretired (working age) household in the U.K. is currently £31,494/ yr.
www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/datasets/householddisposableincomeandinequality/financialyearending2020/hdiireferencetables201920update.xlsx

The Great British Class Survey done in 2013 proposed seven social classes. But really, it’s upper class (Elite) then three types of middle class ( Established, Technical and New Affluent Workers), then three types of working class (Traditional Working Class, Emergent Service Workers and Precariat). Class is a decent proxy for income brackets upper, middle and lower. So anyway, the survey found that 6% are upper, 46% are middle and 48% are lower. This roughly correlates with anyone falling below the median household income, being lower income/working class.

So, households usually have 1 working adult, or 2 working adults. If we reverse calculate salary from the ONS median household disposable income which is essentially net pay after taxes, then:
-Any single household with a salary less than £39,500 a year is by ONS definition lower income because more than half the single households have higher salaries; and

-Any couple household with combined gross salaries of £52,000 a year is by ONS definition lower income because more than half the couple households have higher salaries.

*As a reminder median is not the average/mean, but the point where half of households have less disposable income and half have more disposable income.

**Disposable income is the amount of money that households have available for spending and saving after direct taxes (such as Income Tax, National Insurance and Council Tax) have been accounted for. It includes earnings from employment, private pensions and investments as well as cash benefits provided by the state.

@Fluffien

But if the restaurants go, so do jobs. Do you think everyone employed by them is on a high wage? I agree with a PP actually that's it's often higher working class/low middle class who feel the squeeze more.

And all the industry that supports them, which is huge and major.

@JaneNorman

the only people who are taking a hit to their household income are the lowest paid

Absolute bullshit. Our household income has taken about a 50% hit in the last 12 months due to base pay cuts and lack of bonuses. Many, many of my friends have had to take pay cuts and they are not low earners.

And don’t even get me started on the self employed. Many of whom would not be considered low earners but have been totally fucked over by lack of support.

True - I know a guy who is self employed and has fallen through every crack and not entitled to a penny.

@DianaT1969 so i am furloughed 2 days a week. I still work 3 days a week, and they only reason i am still furloughed is because the scheme is available, and my employer wants to use it. I am swamped with work, i am having to fit 5 days worth of work into 3 because my boss is greedy and doesn't want to pay me - why would he, if the Government is offering? So do you suggest to tax me for that? It was never my choice to be furloughed, and i would happily come back full time - but he doesn't allow me.

When it comes down to the nuts and bolts, we have to 'accept' that we're okay with this; the poorer paying for this lockdown largesse.

'We' voted Tory. This is what Tory governments do, as was ever thus.

Many poor communities fell for the lies felt their interests were best served by the Tories. Thus voted pretty conclusively for them. Despite Austerity; despite Brexit.

Maybe the coming storm might refocus some minds; who knows.

@JaneNorman

the only people who are taking a hit to their household income are the lowest paid

Absolute bullshit. Our household income has taken about a 50% hit in the last 12 months due to base pay cuts and lack of bonuses. Many, many of my friends have had to take pay cuts and they are not low earners.

And don’t even get me started on the self employed. Many of whom would not be considered low earners but have been totally fucked over by lack of support.

If you can afford 50% pay cut you don't have a clue what its like to be a low earner. If we took a 50% pay cut we wouldn't be able to afford to live. So low earners are harder hit.