AIBU to think that people on the lowest wages are imminently set to get financially clobbered in order to foot the bill for keeping the discretionary spending economy up and running ...

[PlebianDreams]

... even though they don't have the means to participate in it?

Tax credits and UC already announced as being cut, council tax up as well, no other tax changes announced as yet. So as of April the only targeted public revenue measures are a) one that reduces the income of already low income households and b) one that is regressive ie not linked to earnings.

We're told that we'll all need to pay for this but so far at least the payment is hitting the lowest paid hardest. This is consistent with "paying" for the financial crisis thirteen years ago when top up benefits were cut and then frozen for twelve years.

Same as then, this is to prop up an economy that people on this level of income have no meaningful way of participating in. As such it's probably a pragmatic move but it feels a bit shitty. What do you think?

@SchrodingersImmigrant

But we have restaurants that charge £25 for a main course. Obviously someone working in a factory would never be able to eat in one of those places.

Erm. Not "obviously" not all jobs in factories are extra low pay. someone working in a factory could very well be able to afford to go to them once a month. You can even on minimum wage FT.

It depends if you're on a contract or you're with agency. If you're on with agency they can often be on zero hour contracts but if you've got a permanent contract you can still only come out with £1200 after tax and that is on minimum wage.

OP you neglect to mention that Universal Credit claimants have benefited from a £20 a week top up and it’s been announced this will continue for another 6 months. It’s not much but it’s something:
www.itv.com/news/2021-02-19/peston-universal-credit-20-uplift-to-continue-for-another-six-months

do you mean ending the £20 weekly top up?

Yes. It's being presented as an end to a top up.

In fact the "top up" was the only increase in UC payments for 12 years. It doesn't even cover inflation for that time. And now it's going. So all low waged workers will from 1 April onwards be facing a cut in household income. Will their wages be going up to compensate? Will they bollocks.

It depends if you're on a contract or you're with agency. If you're on with agency they can often be on zero hour contracts but if you've got a permanent contract you can still only come out with £1200 after tax and that is on minimum wage.

Yes. However, that still doesn't meant that Obviously someone working in a factory would never be able to eat in one of those places.. There are many who do,any who don't. It is not "obvious" because it's simply wrong.

Ffs am I really conversing with people who think that workers on 1200 a month can afford to eat out in even medium range restaurants on a regular basis?

This is not their economy, which even those Tory cunts realise and which is why said tories are comfortable with leaving them with less. Because they're not discretionary spenders anyway. I have to say that if you don't get the utilitarian aspect then we don't have much to discuss.

Supporting the lowest paid/ unwaged people would probably be better for the economy- because they are more likely to spend any more money they get, therefore keeping money circulating. And supporting people in poverty would have a positive effect on their mental and physical health, child wellbeing & reduce offending- thereby reducing costs to the public purse. Now would be a good time to seriously trial universal basic income!

People should pay in proportion to the benefit they received. There are only some things relating to covid that genuinely should be socialised. Even then, the burden should be very different to be fair based on broad benefit vs sacrifice.

Furlough and grants should be allocated between the shareholders and the people who benefited from it. Test and tracing should be allocated to those who required them. Increased healthcare costs should be allocated accordingly. Vaccines charged according to priority group. All these can be managed as a personal debt to be paid over the next 5 years.

Most of the overarching remaining bill however should be taxed based on age. Nobody under 40 should be paying anything for this - now or in the future. It's just unfair to do so as they made so much sacrifice for no benefit - everything should be paid for by the older generations increasing burden with age, as they were the main beneficiaries.

Maybe a tax based on total lifetime earnings and capital gains would work somewhat, but I'd personally just prefer a one-off bill for everyone based on their age and personal benefit of the support provided - again payable over 5 years.

@SchrodingersImmigrant

It depends if you're on a contract or you're with agency. If you're on with agency they can often be on zero hour contracts but if you've got a permanent contract you can still only come out with £1200 after tax and that is on minimum wage.

Yes. However, that still doesn't meant that Obviously someone working in a factory would never be able to eat in one of those places.. There are many who do,any who don't. It is not "obvious" because it's simply wrong.

Yeah, but if you've got a budget of £100 left for the month after you've paid bills on that £1200, you're not gonna spend £25 on a main course are you?

I think that £25 will cover the cost of the increase of all my utility bills in April and food bills.

It will be employees that are high rate tax payers that will be clobbered the most.

Exactly @Dogdog123.

@Carycy

It will be employees that are high rate tax payers that will be clobbered the most.

Yeah, but surely they would've had the ability to have saved money? They can afford to go without luxuries and tighten their belts.

People on lower wages don't have that ability to save because they've probably got the bare minimum in the first place.

Many factory workers are on shift pay and also paid a premium for skills such as electrical and mechanical craft. Sure, there are low paid workers, but some are on extremely good money.

Generalisations aside, low paid will suffer. When services such as free activities at children's centres are cut, those with spare money go to the paid-for classes and arrange play dates at soft play etc. Those without the spare cash do without. Services have been gradually cut over the years, and are going to be decimated after covid, those who can't afford to pay for what they need are going to suffer.

Ffs am I really conversing with people who think that workers on 1200 a month can afford to eat out in even medium range restaurants on a regular basis?

Yes, you are. I was very much one of them.

And yes, it is their economy. It's everyone's economy because it's about saving the jobs there. Not about "who gets to spend there". It's to keep people in employment. Restaurants/bars are also massive income for hmrc in terms of taxes. They also keep suplliers and many tradesmen in jobs. Again. They all pay VAT. And income tax and more.
It's in everyone's best interest that we don't lose all of that. Everyone has to pitch in. Most people are losing out.
And if you don't get that, then yeah. We don't have much to discuss.

If the restaurant isn't kept open, then the people who work there (many of them falling into the low income category) will lose their jobs, the restaurant won't pay tax so long term there will be more people reliant on benefits with less income to pay for it. The restaurant won't prosper and perhaps be able to expand and take on new staff. Everything will stultify.

Multiply that hypothetical restaurant by multitudes of others and shops and pub and imagine the impact on the economy - millions out of work - more costs and less available to fund public sector

Everyone is going to bear the pain of this for some time to come which isn't going to be very nice :(

But if the restaurants go, so do jobs. Do you think everyone employed by them is on a high wage? I agree with a PP actually that's it's often higher working class/low middle class who feel the squeeze more.

So who else is paying right now? Apart from the low waged I mean. Who else is paying for all of those businesses who relied on the government to pay their employees wages? So that they could continue to sell middle class meals to middle class people?

@sandandseashores

People should pay in proportion to the benefit they received. There are only some things relating to covid that genuinely should be socialised. Even then, the burden should be very different to be fair based on broad benefit vs sacrifice.

Furlough and grants should be allocated between the shareholders and the people who benefited from it. Test and tracing should be allocated to those who required them. Increased healthcare costs should be allocated accordingly. Vaccines charged according to priority group. All these can be managed as a personal debt to be paid over the next 5 years.

Most of the overarching remaining bill however should be taxed based on age. Nobody under 40 should be paying anything for this - now or in the future. It's just unfair to do so as they made so much sacrifice for no benefit - everything should be paid for by the older generations increasing burden with age, as they were the main beneficiaries.

Maybe a tax based on total lifetime earnings and capital gains would work somewhat, but I'd personally just prefer a one-off bill for everyone based on their age and personal benefit of the support provided - again payable over 5 years.

That would be amazing. It would be fair.

Sad it will never happen.

The under 40s can only blame themselves really. We should have all banded together, and leveraged this deal about 11 months ago. Bankroll this, or we’ll do whatever the hell we like.

Hehe OP you obviously aren't poor. £1200 a month is plenty of money to afford to eat at a nice restaurant once a month. My partner and I each earn that much. We are not entitled to any benefits. As key workers our jobs were not affected by covid. We have a nice home and everything we need. (Also, we are middle class). Don't be so condescending!

@PlebianDreams

So who else is paying right now? Apart from the low waged I mean. Who else is paying for all of those businesses who relied on the government to pay their employees wages? So that they could continue to sell middle class meals to middle class people?

Everyone will be paying for it. Everyone. It's whole society's responsibility now to pay something. Or we could end up (we already have 2 million I think) even more people on benefits with no jobs, but where would the money come from? Less vat income, less income tax and nin and more. Less overall income to the wallet. What do you think happens then? Again. It's in EVERYONE'S best interest to have the jobs survive.

@PlebianDreams

So who else is paying right now? Apart from the low waged I mean. Who else is paying for all of those businesses who relied on the government to pay their employees wages? So that they could continue to sell middle class meals to middle class people?

How much did EOTHO cost?

How much has test and trace cost?
How much has the SDLT holiday cost?

Think you are focussing on the small fry.

Why should under 40's be the blamed for it?

What have we done to deserve 10 years of wages that haven't grown as fast as inflation?

Tuition fees increasing by 3x, house prices increasing and you needed a bigger deposit than ever to get on the housing ladder.

I dunno, I guess I just feel really alienated by the whole thing. I don't have any money for meals out or days out anyway so I don't benefit from those things. I've listened for the last year to media reports about how much money people are saving in lockdown and I haven't saved any. Really my bills have gone up and my council tax and bus fares are going to go up again and food is going up as well. And I've spent day after day going to my shit job and being scared of is this the day I'm going to catch the rona and all the buses are all to cock timetable wise. I've spent most of the last year scared, with no more money than I had previous, and now I'm going into this year scared and with less money than I had previous but paying out more in council tax and bills and I'm just fucked off tbh with you.

Those restaurants have rightly been supported by central and local governments. And people working in factories, who have been working through the pandemic, are right now having their UC cut and their council tax raised in order to pay back the money that the government gave those businesses. Even though they will never eat in them.

Low paid people pay very little income tax. So they will not be contributing that much towards these payments. Also, propping up businesses is to prevent mass unemployment. It benefits the workers not the customers (no one can eat out at the moment anyway). There are plenty of big employers who employ poor people. A big local employer here is jaguar land rover. It would be a disasters if they went out of business. The fact that most of the factory floor workers will never own a jaguar is completely beside the point.

@PlebianDreams

Ah bless them. The middle class have been complaining for the last twenty years that they've seen a comparative drop in living standards. Conveniently forgetting that said drop is due to the rise of the international middle class squeezing their schools, houses etc so that maybe they have to run a shit second car in order to budget for private school and omg that's such an imposition while completely ignoring the class beneath them living on £8.74 ph with no allowance for between job travel feeling the force of a Manolo Blahnik on their human face forever. They've never understood it.

I don't get this stereotype that private schools is such a quintessentially middle class thing. Only 7% of children go to private school, how can that represent the 'middle' band of a population in any shape or form? Does that make the other 93% of the population automatically working class?

So who else is paying right now? Apart from the low waged I mean. Who else is paying for all of those businesses who relied on the government to pay their employees wages? So that they could continue to sell middle class meals to middle class people?

What are you on about? If you are on about the furlough scheme, it's kept many on low wages from being made redundant, and no one is paying for it (yet...). Just because businesses may appear 'rich', they are effectively losing a lot of money every month they are closed/only able to do a reduced service, and couldn't afford to keep paying staff, is it better if they were chucked onto UC rather than had a chance at their job when they can reopen? It's also very shortsighted to not see the bigger picture. Low middle class will feel the pinch more from tax hikes, not being eligible for any support, and the loss of jobs at that level. Also a lot of those who have kept working throughout are in secure employment so probably are on better footing going forward than many.