How do women square holidaying in Dubai with the lived reality of UAE women?

[Bouncealot]

Never understood a friend raving about the luxury, lack of crime, cleanliness, attentiveness of hotel and retail staff, when I had watched documentaries on slave labour, especially Philippine and Pakistani people denied passports, sleeping on kitchen floors and UAEs refusal to give stats on FGM to WHO. Just listened to Woman’s Hour discussion on the Princess Latifa case. It seems not a subject for discussion when people are planning ‘sunshine breaks’.
IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

Western women

@Thewordgame

I don't go to Dubai, but there is always a whiff of Islamophobia about these threads.

I get this too. Every single time. Would love to see some boycotting of china/chinese goods after genocide being committed there. No sorry aint gonna happen as it’s wayyyy to inconvenient.

There are places in the Middle East I would like to go to, Jordan, for example, because there are beautiful things to see but I'd have to know far more about it before I could be happy that I wasn't propping up something that wouldn't sit well with my conscience . Dubai is a fancy shopping mall or Middle East Vegas. There's something so horrible about going somewhere like that with all its issues just because it's sort of "fancy" and cheaper than the properly fancy places.

There are a lot of places I wouldn't go to because of dodgy societal shite. China is one of them. On the one hand, I'd love to go because there is so much beauty to see but I couldn't do it because I wouldn't be comfortable with myself for doing that.

I'd have difficulty going to Rio de Janeiro because of the absolute poverty side by side with opulence. Each person makes their own decision but there is definitely something pretty vile about Dubai.

Even if I could look past it, my partner and I aren't married, and they can't look past that. I almost took a temporary job there and realised he wouldn't even be able to visit me without risk. Hard pass.

I have a distant friend who moved there. She’s always posting about how amazing it is and how the UK is awful, the government here is awful etc - yes the government here is currently pretty awful but at least we have a semblance of freedom and democracy and actual human rights eh.

She was always thick though.....

@Buccanarab
Yep. The snobbery, hypocrisy, islamophobia and borderline racism on this thread is both predictable and depressing./and no, never been. It looks boring.

I have similar feelings about Pakistan, I personally will never visit again and I will do anything I can to persuade my son not to visit when he is an adult.

As a British Pakistani (born in Pakistan but raised in England), I find this so sad. It's an amazing country with many amazing people. You only have to see YouTube videos to see the welcome visitors get.

Yes, Pakistan has its problems but that's no reason to boycott the entire country.

If you don't like dubai that's fine, don't go but don't pretend you're somehow better than those that do.*

I'm not pretending my opinion makes me better than anyone else, in fact I quite clearly said most of my friends go and I just don't have that conversation with them because I respect their choices are different than mine! I don't understand it and cant get my head around how they can enjoy it when they are usually so pro equality in other areas of their lives but that is not my problem to worry about. However, I am still entitled to say I would not go because I could not support a country that actively encourages such maltreatment of human beings and treats women so badly - and their laws allow that to happen! I get the arguments that some of this also goes on in the UK but the difference is that we have laws to prevent it and whilst they are far from perfect and it still goes on, it is a very different situation. I am entitled to have these view and I do not think they make me better than somebody that doesn't have those views. If my views make you feel bad about your choices that is on you.

*so if you only want to holiday in countries with good governments that respect human rights [...] that’s .... kind of sad

What?*

You've edited this comment in a way that changes its meaning. Sneaky.

People can behave horrifically in any country but state sanctioned behaviour is why this place is so terrible.

For instance in war women are raped often but Japan sanctioned comfort women and it was mass state sanctioned rape.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe So, in your case then GreenlandTheMovie, do you have other holiday options? Are you able to afford a holiday elsewhere? Would you forego any holiday because of mal-treatment of women in the holiday country of your choice - knowing that you can't have a holiday AT ALL? Or are you just chucking in that £1000 because it's just words?

No, I am not "chucking in anything because its just words". I do a lot of sport, which involves training on my own and driving to varied training locations, and Dubai would be a nightmare because my normal activities would be curtailed rather than enhanced. And yes, I am aware that athletes do go to Dubai for warm weather training but I don't cope well with concrete environments or sand. Its nearly all laps of the Al Qudra cycling tracks or other man made facilities, and you need someone to basically act as your body guard or at least keep an eye on you plus a driver.

And thats in addition to my total disgust at their interpretation of Sharia law and human rights abuses. There are far more holiday options than Dubai, in normal times. As it is, in this pandemic, I will do without, like most people.

So with those two considerations taken into account, generally a destination which abuses womens' rights isn't suitable for me anyway. The two seem to run quite closely together - abuse of human rights and inability to enjoy the fun activities (even just hiring a car and going out exploring the countryside/secnery in it) which make my holidays worth having.

Perhaps £1k isn't that much to you; it isn't to many people (apparently) on MN. What if it were £10m for a free holiday there? Still not going?

No. Absolutely not. I'm not prepared to sell my soul for any price. I am perfectly capable of making my own money. This is actually coming quite close to something that caused a bit of a furore in my sport some years ago - a men's squad were offered sponsorship of a free training camp in Saudi Arabia while the women weren't. The women objected and it was later written into the terms of their contracts with the governing body that they could not accept any training trips that were not approved by the regulatory arm of the governing body itself, which checks them for compliance with its equality policy, amongst others.

.... people who go to places with horrific human rights abuses and gush that everyone was just so friendly ....

Maybe the limited people they had engagement with - but also complicity with torture isn’t exactly a winning trait in my book.

This thread isn't Islamophobic. Islam does not place these restrictions on women, governments and families (in other words, men) do.

I wouldn't want to visit Dubai at all and something else that pisses me off is the World Cup being held in Qatar. For crying out loud, if a girl or woman there wants to play football, she has to have permission from her father or husband!

I’d never travel to Dubai for holiday.

The previous poster who claimed we’re just as bad; I don’t condone cannabis (none of my friends do), detest stag do culture (as does dh and his friends - they went ten pin bowling / out for a meal / did a zombie-themed escape room) and don’t buy clothes from companies I know to be unethical (I may slip here but only through lack of available information).

The message of "ignore the human rights abuses" is coming from the top - our so called Government.

....and people's greed for 'tax free' money is enabling the corrupt system and financing it.

I think a lot of people are just plain ignorant. All they see is a slick, fun getaway and are often completely unaware of the grim reality of the social issues going on in certain places. Also, many people really don't give a hoot about the plight of those less fortunate than them. They just think about their own needs first. Sad but true. This happens all the time in places like Thailand where sex tourism is huge. No one bothers to think about it if it doesn't directly affect them personally :(

@Frequentflier

The problem is most nations you would travel to would have terrible human rights records, yes? Including the U.S? India. Thailand. Sri Lanka. China. Pakistan. Russia.

I'm not keen to visit any of those countries, for exactly this reason. I'd add Turkey and Myanmar to that list. Australia's done some very questionable things with refugees held offshore.

What's wrong with staying in European countries with a decent human rights record?

Staying nearer to home has huge environmental benefits too.

To add to my previous posts, although I would not choose to visit Dubai for a holiday, when travelling to the UAE on business I was always treated politely and respectfully by any Emirati I dealt with.

@SharonasCorona

I have similar feelings about Pakistan, I personally will never visit again and I will do anything I can to persuade my son not to visit when he is an adult.

As a British Pakistani (born in Pakistan but raised in England), I find this so sad. It's an amazing country with many amazing people. You only have to see YouTube videos to see the welcome visitors get.

Yes, Pakistan has its problems but that's no reason to boycott the entire country.

My very existence is illegal in Pakistan, my existence could even lead to ten years in prison and a fine or life in prison.

YABU for asking about "women", as if only women should be concerned about those issues, or as if MN only has women.

But, I agree with you, and there are some contries in the world that I'm not keen on visiting and might only do it for work, or in transit, if absolutely necessary, but not to work in and certainly not for a holiday.

TBH, though, in large part due to personal safety concerns, as most have dictatorships, unfair laws or non-transparent/unfair justice systems, or women are treated very poorly.

Yabu to focus on women only. Anyone thinking about visiting should be mindful of those issues.
It's not somewhere that interests me in any way and I also have issue with the things you raised.

@GreenlandTheMovie

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe So, in your case then GreenlandTheMovie, do you have other holiday options? Are you able to afford a holiday elsewhere? Would you forego any holiday because of mal-treatment of women in the holiday country of your choice - knowing that you can't have a holiday AT ALL? Or are you just chucking in that £1000 because it's just words?

No, I am not "chucking in anything because its just words". I do a lot of sport, which involves training on my own and driving to varied training locations, and Dubai would be a nightmare because my normal activities would be curtailed rather than enhanced. And yes, I am aware that athletes do go to Dubai for warm weather training but I don't cope well with concrete environments or sand. Its nearly all laps of the Al Qudra cycling tracks or other man made facilities, and you need someone to basically act as your body guard or at least keep an eye on you plus a driver.

And thats in addition to my total disgust at their interpretation of Sharia law and human rights abuses. There are far more holiday options than Dubai, in normal times. As it is, in this pandemic, I will do without, like most people.

So with those two considerations taken into account, generally a destination which abuses womens' rights isn't suitable for me anyway. The two seem to run quite closely together - abuse of human rights and inability to enjoy the fun activities (even just hiring a car and going out exploring the countryside/secnery in it) which make my holidays worth having.

Perhaps £1k isn't that much to you; it isn't to many people (apparently) on MN. What if it were £10m for a free holiday there? Still not going?

No. Absolutely not. I'm not prepared to sell my soul for any price. I am perfectly capable of making my own money. This is actually coming quite close to something that caused a bit of a furore in my sport some years ago - a men's squad were offered sponsorship of a free training camp in Saudi Arabia while the women weren't. The women objected and it was later written into the terms of their contracts with the governing body that they could not accept any training trips that were not approved by the regulatory arm of the governing body itself, which checks them for compliance with its equality policy, amongst others.

Thanks for replying, kudos Greenland and I apologise to you for my post.

I’m glad you started this thread; I’ve always thought this. My best friend goes there regularly. I find it hard to square that with the rest of her. I would never go.

I agree, OP. I can’t imagine going there for a holiday for this reason.

Thanks for replying, kudos Greenland and I apologise to you for my post.

Not at all, and I suspect you got a bit more or a reply than you were expecting!

Usually go to some part of Spain or Portugal for warm weather training. Many go to Florida. Also been to South Africa, where I learned a lot about the issues facing the people there, because unlike Dubai, you can actually meet the people who live there and chat to them about anything.

Its good shorthand when someone tells me they have been to Dubai when I meet them, I know that they are a total wally.