How do women square holidaying in Dubai with the lived reality of UAE women?

[Bouncealot]

Never understood a friend raving about the luxury, lack of crime, cleanliness, attentiveness of hotel and retail staff, when I had watched documentaries on slave labour, especially Philippine and Pakistani people denied passports, sleeping on kitchen floors and UAEs refusal to give stats on FGM to WHO. Just listened to Woman’s Hour discussion on the Princess Latifa case. It seems not a subject for discussion when people are planning ‘sunshine breaks’.
IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

I feel like you OP

I also think people who take cruises should look into the pay staff receive and how tips can be withheld.

I don't go to Dubai, but there is always a whiff of Islamophobia about these threads.

I will quote a hijab wearing former student of mine, "Who the hell wants to live under Sharia law?"

Well I hope none of you visit China, America, Russia and Poland ( abortion and election of judges) and whole other load of places.

Why are you imposing your morals on another nation with a different culture, let them progress at their own pace and spread awareness.

I think at the end of the day people make their own decisions based upon their own view and experience. Few of us know the full facts about any country that we visit. There are countries I would not go to but have visited in the past that is due to publicity.

CounsellorTroi
Frequentflier
The problem is most nations you would travel to would have terrible human rights records, yes? Including the U.S? India. Thailand. Sri Lanka. China. Pakistan. Russia.

You don't often see people on SM posing on a beach there, Pina Colada in hand.

What not even Thailand? Goa? The Maldives don’t have a great human rights record either. Let’s make it unfashionable and unacceptable to go there too.

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Absolutely however many other locations aren't so achingly fashionable as Dubai. The fact that Sheikh Mohammed can actually keep his own female children captive, apparently unchallenged thanks to his friendship circle is of particular interest though.

@GoodbyePorpoiseSpit

Its good shorthand when someone tells me they have been to Dubai when I meet them, I know that they are a total wally.

I'd think anyone who made up their mind about someone because they have visited one country was a total wally.

My very existence is illegal in Pakistan, my existence could even lead to ten years in prison and a fine or life in prison.

I don't dispute it's illegal, but prosecutions against gay people are rare. Pakistan does have gay and transexual communities.

I wouldn't boycott a whole country over it, just support those fighting for gay rights.

I would never go and spend my money in a country where I didn't agree with their human rights records/ the way they treat women/ minorities etc

Rowena great post 👏

I have a fairly simple “red line” about countries I visit. I refuse to visit any country that has the death penalty.

The way I see it is I am not perfect about what I do and don’t do human rights wise, I am not an expert on each country, I do not know what the best thing is from the point of view trying to reduce human rights abuses and whether we should continue to trade with countries.

But I can choose to not visit and so not to give my money directly to a country that commits the greatest human rights abuse there is. And so I do.

I am not always perfect with this. And not always completely logical. For example Turkey is still on my “no” list even though they abolished the death penalty in 2004. (And haven’t executed anyone since 1984.)

And I did go to the Maldives in 2009 even though they do still technically have the death penalty. (I used the loophole that they haven’t actually executed anyone since 1950-something.) I don’t think I’d go now though as there has been mutterings about them bringing it back.

Does it limit our holidays? Yes. Does my husband occasionally roll his eyes about it? Yes - although to be fair he is also anti the death penalty so he does agree in principle. But we have still been able to have some wonderful holidays. It helps that we are sporty types rather than sight seeing types so I don’t think we are missing out too much.

Well I hope none of you visit China, America, Russia and Poland ( abortion and election of judges) and whole other load of places.

Well, not for a holiday, no, and the US not under Trump. (although I've been to America, the continent)
I certainly wouldn't want to live in Poland now, as well as a range of other countries.
Not to mean that I won't visit them ever, like I said, possibly for work if absolutely necessary. There's a difference between visiting and going on holiday.

Oh, as for the "women can drive" argument, think about that for a moment.

Firstly that woman will need to pay for lessons. And a car. So you need to be affluent. And you still need the permission of your male chaperone to do these things. It's not quite the Freedom Mobile you think.

Russia also has a huge domestic violence problems. Thousands a year. So many in fact, that certain acts of DV are now legal.

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Poppy it's horrific isn't it. That story a few weeks ago of that poor woman beaten by her boyfriend and left to die in freezing temperatures on a balcony. While viewed by people on the internet paying him for the privilege.

Lived and worked there for a year many years ago. It's a fake, sad, pathetic place IMO.

OP, I am not a fan of Dubai, there is nothing there apart from shopping malls and hotels, however it is ridiculous to judge women who go there on holiday because of the politics in the country of destination. I hope you avoid pretry much entire Middle East, majority of South Asia, Eastern Europe and US all together as most countries in the world have one or many ways they don't treat one or many groups of people right

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

Russia also has a huge domestic violence problems. Thousands a year. So many in fact, that certain acts of DV are now legal.

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Poppy it's horrific isn't it. That story a few weeks ago of that poor woman beaten by her boyfriend and left to die in freezing temperatures on a balcony. While viewed by people on the internet paying him for the privilege.

I don't have the words. It's estimated that one woman in HOUR is murdered in Russia from DV.

I don't think boycotting does any good. Surely exposure to Western culture can only be a good thing for women's rights in Dubai.

Going there on holiday doesn't condone or fund human rights abuses. The situation hasn't got worse, it was bad before the tourists came and it will be bad if they leave.

We have a British citizen arbitrarily detained in Iran which the British government can't do anything about because they have no influence. That would be less likely to happen in Dubai because of the trade links and bad press it would get as a tourist destination.

Kim Jong-un's daughter went missing, Raab wouldn't even bother commenting on it.

Isolating countries doesn't work. The rulers will still live in palaces and cling to power anyway they can and the ordinary citizen's will suffer.

Mixed feelings on this. I don't begrudge other people going on luxury or exotic holidays. Would i go to UAE/Dubai? No, I'm not interested in 7 star luxury, there's alot of slave labour and i don't agree with their attitudes/treatment of women.

Covid I'm going to take a wild guess that you aren't gay or a lesbian?

Judging by DH's step brothers' families it'll be because they haven't given other people's circumstances a second thought and probably dont give a shit either because it's all about flash with cash high society life. His fathers view is that he likes to fancy himself in some kind of bygone era of English abroad being "served".

DH and I have nothing to do with this "family members".

I imagine most people are blinded by luxury and glamour and kid themselves it isnt that bad for women or those in the service industry...

I wouldn't boycott a whole country over it

Is there anything you think is worth boycotting a country for @SharonasCorona ?

Not goady, it's just that if you are always able to divorce the government and legal system from the visiting experience then you'll probably never feel a country is worth boycotting, whereas people who view it as all wrapped up together will probably see boycotting as quite normal.

In reality of course it is much, much more complicated!

I don't and would never holiday there. The way they treat women, LGB etc etc would mean I couldn't square it at all. I'm afraid to admit I do silently judge people who go to places like that on holiday. I know that lots of places have poor human rights records but this is one that really stands out.

One common theme I've noticed amongst people I know who holiday in these locations, in particular the sunny ones are comments about how big everything is, how luxurious it is, how glamorous it is (not so much about the natural beauty, incredible history). As if supersizing everything makes it easy not to look below the surface.

But as many have said there will always be enough people willing to go and who want a piece of the footballer lifestyle for a week to mean these cess pits will continue to thrive.

Been there once many years ago, never again!

I haven't been to Dubai, it doesn't interest me but where would people consider an ethical holiday to be?
People might say stick to Europe, Spain etc but what about the wolf pack 'La Manada' case?
Another case - copied from wiki,
In late November 2018, the same panel of judges in charge of "La Manada" case convicted a man from Lodosa, Navarre, of occasional 'mistreatment' and handed down a 10-month prison term in a case in which the defendant "attempted to kill [the victim] with a knife and by strangulation while she struggled for her life, with their young children watching, before eventually giving up"; the sentence cited the man's mental state as a mitigating factor.[38] Amnesty International has denounced the hurdles encountered by victims of gender aggression in the Spanish justice system.