How do women square holidaying in Dubai with the lived reality of UAE women?

[Bouncealot]

Never understood a friend raving about the luxury, lack of crime, cleanliness, attentiveness of hotel and retail staff, when I had watched documentaries on slave labour, especially Philippine and Pakistani people denied passports, sleeping on kitchen floors and UAEs refusal to give stats on FGM to WHO. Just listened to Woman’s Hour discussion on the Princess Latifa case. It seems not a subject for discussion when people are planning ‘sunshine breaks’.
IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

Well, yes, you are. It isn't so bad if you do get a good standard of living anyway, but when it's way lower than the locals, then the exploitation is worse, even if enough to support a family. Notice support family in their home country. Not support family where they work.

Why are only women responsible for opposing the oppression of other women OP?

Interesting thread. There is prob forced labour and economic migration in Dubai. The unpalatable truth is that despite its awful human rights abuses, Dubai prob does more to raise living standards of South Asians than other countries such as the UK, simply because it offers employment at much higher wages to workers than in their domestic countries and the migrants then send funds home. Working conditions may seem deplorable to those in the UK but the sad fact is they are probably better for a lot of people than in their home country. Dubai could argue if UK was really serious about helping the poor in those countries, why don't they allow more migration in?

British woman who faced two years in jail in Dubai over 'f* you' WhatsApp ...
Saturday 20th February 2021

en.mogaznews.com/World-News/amp/1690343

British woman in Dubai faces jail time and $140,000 fine for rude WhatsApp message to her roommate Feb 6, 2021

www.insider.com/dubai-woman-faces-jail-140000-fine-rude-message-to-roommate-2021-2?amp

Completely agree. I nearly spat my tea out today when an ad for Saudi as a holiday destination appeared on tv. I also won't entertain Thailand for similar reasons. I guess you have to draw the line somewhere though and my decision not to go will mean very little to anyone but me.

Perhaps not unreasonably, telling someone to fuck off via social media is frowned upon in the UAE and I'm not sure that's a particularly bad thing. Despite the headlines and the Daily Mail ranting you will see that the woman actually received a GBP 600 fine. Personally I value the stricter controls that are placed on the use of social media, particularly as I have two teenage daughters.

Personally I value the stricter controls that are placed on the use of social media, particularly as I have two teenage daughters.
It was on WhatsApp- do you think it's right to police private messages?

@Sometimesonly

Personally I value the stricter controls that are placed on the use of social media, particularly as I have two teenage daughters. It was on WhatsApp- do you think it's right to police private messages?

It would seem that the person who received the abusive message reported it (and the sender) to the police.

Encouraging people not to behave abusively on social media seems like a good thing - you wouldn't tolerate someone screaming abuse at you in your workplace or home so why should it be acceptable on WhatsApp.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9281237/British-woman-faced-two-years-jail-Dubai-f-WhatsApp-message-allowed-leave.html

What I find interesting from the above is that immigrants seem to think of themselves above the local laws. If you live in any country, you need to understand that you have to comply with local laws and you may end up in the hands of the local police and justice system, which can be quite different from home. It may seem like a paradise on the surface, with many exceptions for tourists and high earning immigrants, but not really.
By all means take the high pay but make sure you understand what the potential downsides can be.

Well I think its always worthwhile thinking that if the Crown Prince can imprison and kidnap his female relatives without any limitation, and can you imagine what they might do to you in Dubai if you caused them a problem? The place has no real system of human rights and is called lawless. The reason the fines can be so big is that you pay literally for the crimes you commit to avoid prison.

So cheap holiday, expensive human cost.

@Sometimesonly

Personally I value the stricter controls that are placed on the use of social media, particularly as I have two teenage daughters. It was on WhatsApp- do you think it's right to police private messages?

We already do though?

We just have different rules on whats allowed to be sent on private messages.

But you absolutely can be arrested for privately sending something illegal in the uk

But you absolutely can be arrested for privately sending something illegal in the uk
Threats yes, not telling someone to F-off.

What I find interesting from the above is that immigrants seem to think of themselves above the local laws.
I think you are being ingenuous. I heard a lawyer being interviewed this week who said that probably about 90% of people who travel to Dubai have already committed a crime that could get them arrested in the country (like the one outlined above). Seeing as you can be arrested for something you wrote years before you even visited the country, if someone has it in for you they can denounce you when you are there. Of course, this is not widely publicized as otherwise the tourism industry would be dead in the water. I am surprised that so many posters seem to think that this is acceptable.

Encouraging people not to behave abusively on social media seems like a good thing

Interesting that you see a prison sentence in the Middle East as a means of "encouraging" people to do something. I'd hate to see what you think is appropriate as an actual punishment!

@LexMitior

Well I think its always worthwhile thinking that if the Crown Prince can imprison and kidnap his female relatives without any limitation, and can you imagine what they might do to you in Dubai if you caused them a problem? The place has no real system of human rights and is called lawless. The reason the fines can be so big is that you pay literally for the crimes you commit to avoid prison.

So cheap holiday, expensive human cost.

It would be inaccurate to suggest that the UAE has no system of human rights or is lawless.

Unlike the UK the UAE has a written constitution that promises equitable treatment of all people, regardless of race, nationality or social status.

The UAE's legal system is different to what you might find in the UK - it's a mix of sharia, common and civil law. There are a few things which are notably different in terms of behaviours likely to get you into trouble but generally speaking, having lived here for a number of years, it's the same as the UK - if you do something wrong and attract the attention of the police then don't be surprised if you get arrested.

What I find interesting from the above is that immigrants seem to think of themselves above the local laws.
I think you are being ingenuous.

I think you didn't read my sentence properly. It's the immigrants (and tourists), in Dubai and other countries, who are being ingenuous. And I was pointing that out.

@Sometimesonly

But you absolutely can be arrested for privately sending something illegal in the uk Threats yes, not telling someone to F-off.

What I find interesting from the above is that immigrants seem to think of themselves above the local laws.
I think you are being ingenuous. I heard a lawyer being interviewed this week who said that probably about 90% of people who travel to Dubai have already committed a crime that could get them arrested in the country (like the one outlined above). Seeing as you can be arrested for something you wrote years before you even visited the country, if someone has it in for you they can denounce you when you are there. Of course, this is not widely publicized as otherwise the tourism industry would be dead in the water. I am surprised that so many posters seem to think that this is acceptable.

If you abuse someone on social media and they choose to report you to the police then you can be charged. As someone has pointed out this could be equally true in the UK. The issue in both jurisdictions considers both the intent (on the part of the sender) and the effect (on the part of the recipient). If someone wants to bring a prosecution against you because you swore at them or were abusive to them online then the police will support you.The simple truth is that if you don't abuse people online to the point they take offence then you won't get into trouble.

The scenario in which you could be charged retrospectively for something you did many years before is simply scaremongering and isn't widely publicised because its nonsense.

Lweji - sorry, I see what you mean now. What struck me though is that it would seem that it is preferable for certain countries to keep their tourists in the dark about what the local laws actually are - if everyone really understood the legal risks they would be unwilling to travel there - and so they propagate this idea that yes, the laws are really strict but not really a problem for tourists - and sometimes people fall foul of that.

@Sometimesonly

Encouraging people not to behave abusively on social media seems like a good thing

Interesting that you see a prison sentence in the Middle East as a means of "encouraging" people to do something. I'd hate to see what you think is appropriate as an actual punishment!

Although the Daily Mail headline made reference to imprisonment the article then went on to state that the woman received a GBP 600 fine. So no I don't think you should go to prison for telling your flatmate to fuck off on WhatsApp but then nor did the authorities...

@Sometimesonly

Lweji - sorry, I see what you mean now. What struck me though is that it would seem that it is preferable for certain countries to keep their tourists in the dark about what the local laws actually are - if everyone really understood the legal risks they would be unwilling to travel there - and so they propagate this idea that yes, the laws are really strict but not really a problem for tourists - and sometimes people fall foul of that.

Most of the laws aren't hugely different its just that they are probably enforced more strictly. If you are drinking in pubic and throwing up in the street the police aren't going to react too kindly to your behaviour. Similarly if you behave violently or threaten someone you are likely to get into trouble.

There are some exceptions but if you aren't making a nuisance of yourself you are unlikely to fall foul of the law.

For the record, wearing revealing clothes, public displays of affection, having sex outside of marriage, being drunk and even homosexuality are unlikely to illicit the interest of the police unless you are showcasing it to the world. And none of these will see you being executed or having bits cut off.

@Factsareimportant It's not illegal in the UK to be gay. It's not illegal in the UK for a woman to work without requesting permission from her legal owner. The two countries are not comparable. To suggest that Dubai is some kind of bastion of human rights is naive bordering on plain stupidity.

The only reason you're sticking up for it is because you are working there and trying to justify it. Women are not equal under the law in Dubai, it doesn't matter what the constitution says. Sharia is a largely subjective legal system based upon personal interpretations of an ancient text. It's illegal to be gay there and people have been imprisoned for it. Women have been locked up for being raped.

It doesn't matter what people say, people can say anything. The leader of Dubai has locked up his daughter, deprived her of human rights and hasn't presented any proof to the UN that she's alive. Dubai isn't a democracy, it's run by the monarchy and political protestors are arrested and tortured. They often disappear.

There is no privacy and social media is censored. What the actual fuck are you thinking, comparing it to the UK? When was the last time someone was kicked out of the country for kissing in public? When was the last time a British citizen was forced to ask her owner permission to work or drive a car? It's a ridiculous comparison.

[quote poppyzbrite4]@Factsareimportant It's not illegal in the UK to be gay. It's not illegal in the UK for a woman to work without requesting permission from her legal owner. The two countries are not comparable. To suggest that Dubai is some kind of bastion of human rights is naive bordering on plain stupidity.

The only reason you're sticking up for it is because you are working there and trying to justify it. Women are not equal under the law in Dubai, it doesn't matter what the constitution says. Sharia is a largely subjective legal system based upon personal interpretations of an ancient text. It's illegal to be gay there and people have been imprisoned for it. Women have been locked up for being raped.

It doesn't matter what people say, people can say anything. The leader of Dubai has locked up his daughter, deprived her of human rights and hasn't presented any proof to the UN that she's alive. Dubai isn't a democracy, it's run by the monarchy and political protestors are arrested and tortured. They often disappear.

There is no privacy and social media is censored. What the actual fuck are you thinking, comparing it to the UK? When was the last time someone was kicked out of the country for kissing in public? When was the last time a British citizen was forced to ask her owner permission to work or drive a car? It's a ridiculous comparison.[/quote]
Dubai isn't a democracy but it is democratic and its legislature the Federal National Council are elected - interestingly almost half of them are women. One of my earlier posts in this thread provides lots of examples of how women in the UAE are flourishing and achieving their potential. The approach to supporting women may be different to what we are accustomed to in the UK but the outcomes are sometimes more effective in terms of pay equality, literacy, access to further education, employment opportunities and social justice.

Whilst some of your observations may be true of other Arab countries I can assure you that the reality is that you won't get kicked out the country for kissing in public or just being gay. Similarly you don't need your husbands permission to work or drive a car. If you are an expat you may need a letter from your employer to buy a car but that works for both sexes and is more to do with making sure you a salary that supports any repayments.

Social media is not censored, rather users are expected to respect other peoples privacy and not to use platforms to abuse other users.

I have not claimed the UAE to be anything other than what the facts indicate it to be. Despite your aggressive tone my wish is to remain neutral in this debate and I am simply providing an insight into the realities of living and working in the UAE.

As an aside the English and UAE legal systems have numerous similarities because until 1971 the region was a British Protectorate.

@Factsareimportant

British man loses Dubai kiss conviction appeal

A British man accused of breaking Dubai's decency laws by kissing a woman in public has had his final appeal against conviction rejected.

Ayman Najafi, 24, from Palmers Green, north London, will now have to serve a month in prison.

Charlotte Adams, 26, from Essex, has served a month's jail term after the kiss in a restaurant.

The couple insisted it was a peck on the cheek, but a woman complained that they were kissing on the mouth

British gay man jailed for three years for drunken sex in Dubai

A British man has been sentenced to three years in prison for having drunken sex in public in Dubai, The National reported yesterday.

The Emirates-based English newspaper identified the 28-year-old British male teacher only by his initials PA. He admitted to having consensual gay sex in February with MB, a 40-year-old man from the Seychelles, next to a petrol station

Dubai wants to be seen as liberal in order to attract business and tourists. They don't want to be seen as draconian and misogynist, so they have appointed women into politics. Women who don't protest and who toe the line because they could risk being tortured and killed. Women are unequal under the law for example, a man can simply divorce while a woman has to apply to a court. They are not treated equally!

We don't know if Princess Latifa is alive. The ruler of Dubai may have murdered his daughter! If she's dead, it's because she's a woman. There are no sons of rulers seeking refugee status in other countries.

"For the record, wearing revealing clothes, public displays of affection, having sex outside of marriage, being drunk and even homosexuality are unlikely to illicit the interest of the police unless you are showcasing it to the world."

Well that's okay then, so long as those pesky gay people hide it they'll be fine.

[quote poppyzbrite4]@Factsareimportant

British man loses Dubai kiss conviction appeal

A British man accused of breaking Dubai's decency laws by kissing a woman in public has had his final appeal against conviction rejected.

Ayman Najafi, 24, from Palmers Green, north London, will now have to serve a month in prison.

Charlotte Adams, 26, from Essex, has served a month's jail term after the kiss in a restaurant.

The couple insisted it was a peck on the cheek, but a woman complained that they were kissing on the mouth

British gay man jailed for three years for drunken sex in Dubai

A British man has been sentenced to three years in prison for having drunken sex in public in Dubai, The National reported yesterday.

The Emirates-based English newspaper identified the 28-year-old British male teacher only by his initials PA. He admitted to having consensual gay sex in February with MB, a 40-year-old man from the Seychelles, next to a petrol station

Dubai wants to be seen as liberal in order to attract business and tourists. They don't want to be seen as draconian and misogynist, so they have appointed women into politics. Women who don't protest and who toe the line because they could risk being tortured and killed. Women are unequal under the law for example, a man can simply divorce while a woman has to apply to a court. They are not treated equally!

We don't know if Princess Latifa is alive. The ruler of Dubai may have murdered his daughter! If she's dead, it's because she's a woman. There are no sons of rulers seeking refugee status in other countries.[/quote]
I'm pretty certain being drunk and having gay sex in public next to a petrol station is an offence in most countries...though admittedly it might not result in a 3 year prison sentence...

( my husband, a lawyer, informs me that gay sex only ceased to be a crime in the UK in 2013 - until then sodomy was a crime in Scotland)

I see you care passionately about women's rights and I can assure you we share that common objective. I can also assure you having met and spoken with dozens of Emirati women that they would not see themselves as being persecuted by the patriarchy. To suggest that they have all been appointed to senior roles in Government or business in order to present a false facade to the world, I believe, fails to acknowledge the skills, expertise and experience these women have. 23,000 Emirati businesswomen run projects worth over GBP 10 billion, and occupy 15% of the positions in the boards of chambers of commerce and industry nationwide. I would argue these women accomplished this through hard work and talent but if you believe its a conspiracy to attract tourists and his fact can't convince you otherwise then so be it.

The joy of this platform is that we are all free to express an opinion and to share our thoughts and insights as to how we arrived at that viewpoint.

I hope all the contributors to this thread recognise the value in being tolerant and respectful of other peoples opinions, cultures and histories. Facts are important because they inform opinions. If you ignore facts then you welcome in ignorance and the intolerance, insecurity and hatred it brings.

Happy travels.

Why do people make such a fuss about observing their laws if you visit THEIR country? I have been to Dubai many times (both before and after marriage) and we had no trouble at all not walking around holding hands or kissing every five minutes. It really isn't necessary - save it for your hotel room.