How do women square holidaying in Dubai with the lived reality of UAE women?

[Bouncealot]

Never understood a friend raving about the luxury, lack of crime, cleanliness, attentiveness of hotel and retail staff, when I had watched documentaries on slave labour, especially Philippine and Pakistani people denied passports, sleeping on kitchen floors and UAEs refusal to give stats on FGM to WHO. Just listened to Woman’s Hour discussion on the Princess Latifa case. It seems not a subject for discussion when people are planning ‘sunshine breaks’.
IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

Yep totally agree with the op

@LexMitior

Our culture is better than a society which permits slavery. Really. Modern slavery is a crime in the UK. So too is trafficking, as are cannabis farms. The criminal gangs that create these problems are not tacitly endorsed by the state or the government, and they are prosecuted. Britain is not perfect but do not compare it to somewhere where organisationally it is permitted.

Our culture and society IS permitting slavery, right here and now. If it was you or your child, suffering 10-20 years or a lifetime of slavery in London, what comfort would it be to you knowing it was illegal? None. And you probably wouldn’t know. Or if you were trafficked here to be sold as a wife, and bore your husband 2 children, what do you think ‘escape’ would offer you? The last freed slave I hosted was deported without her children, to a homeland she hadn’t seen or heard from since she was 10, where she had no contacts, and no means of feeding herself, other than prostitution. The fact that her life was a total irredeemable fuck up wasn’t in any way improved by it being illegal. She had originally been sold by an uncle into the Eastern European ‘stag do’ industry, after her fathers death. So anyone supporting these companies is complicit in her trafficking, and ongoing rape and torture, if she is even still alive. And in her children being motherless

Wouldn't go there if you paid me £1000 to have a free holiday there!

In no way would I ever spend any of my money in such a corrupt, wicked country which tolerates the appalling treatment of so many people who have grown rich out of the misery of other human beings.

I actually had some people from Dubai stay in one of my properties, and they behaved in such an appalling, demanding and rude way that I refunded them and told them to go and stay in a hotel instead.

Yes and no. Lots of countries have horrific human rights abuses yet I'd love to go a visit to see the fantastic culture and history (looking at you China and Russia!)

I agree Dubai is a little different. I think it depends on your attitude and what you do when you're there. It doesn't appeal to me at all but I can still see why some people would like the experience even if they know there is more to it.

They go because it’s socially acceptable to do so.

The more we talk about it, the less socially acceptable it becomes.

I find the issues with the UAE particularly disturbing because the rot starts right at the top with the Prime Minister/Monarch and his horrific treatment of the women in his own family.

Because people just ignore the human rights abuses for a holiday in the sun. I would never go, both for my own safety (especially as a lesbian, I could be jailed or worse for 'sodomy') and because I don't want to support a regime that treats people that way.

I'm sure we all ignore treatment of other people to some extent. How many people look into the conditions that ALL of their clothes were made in, for example? But when the horrific conditions are as well-known as in Dubai, I feel as though tourists are willingly putting their own fun above other people's human rights.

Wouldn't go for all the money in the world. People denying the problems need help.

@unmarkedbythat

I think we need to have a good long look at ourselves before pointing the finger. To be completely honest, our culture is not a great deal better. Particularly as far as the treatment of non-white/non- British women and children go.

If we all took this approach South Africa would likely still have apartheid.

No it wouldn’t. Why would you say that?

I would never go to Dubai or any other country with its values.
judge those that do/
I try not to judge ,and wouldn't say anything,but deep down i would judge

@Rowenasemolina - none of what you have posted is endorsed by Britain, or its law. You are trying to suggest an equivalence between a state that systemically oppresses some of its people, and another which has laws which aim to prevent slavery and crimes done to vulnerable people. There is a massive difference between those two states, and I'm confident you know that.

Crimes against or exploitation of the vulnerable are heartbreaking - that does not mean that they are endorsed by the authorities here.

that is horrendous Rowenasemolina! What a difficult job you do, that must be heartbreaking. You are right, the problem is not ;just; Dubai, there are other atrocities going on. But does that mean we just turn a blind eye to them all as long we can have a pampered holiday with some sunshine, after all there are other horrible things going on in the world, we can't be expected to solve them all and we need a holiday

@saffire

My partner has worked in Dubai and Saudi (which is now pushing its tourism offerings!) and has said that he wouldn't holiday in either. He's seen the way workers are treated. It's basically slavery, but as the slaves aren't black, no-one seems to give a shit about it. Perhaps if more people realised the truth, they wouldn't go. And it's not cheap either!

I know they take passports, which is horrific, but for a lot of people in the region, it’s a place they can go and make money. They would never leave their home country unless the salary was good. Be glad you don’t have to take risks just to provide the basics for your family.

I knew many who worked in the Gulf for a few years, saved money and went home to open a business or build their home.

They’d be trapped in deeper poverty if they stayed home.

I've visited Dubai many times for work (I'm not an Influencer though!). While I've enjoyed the experience whilst there I would never choose to holiday there or visit for any reason other than work. It doesn't sit comfortably with my personal values.

I think we need to have a good long look at ourselves before pointing the finger.

@5zeds

I think we need to have a good long look at ourselves before pointing the finger.

people who say this really don’t know how bad things are in the rest of the world.

You should be ashamed of such naivety

While I agree that often human rights is a phrase banded about with little context, I do think that a definition exists that is universal. I do believe that the UN declaration is accepted widely enough on a global scale to be taken as a definition that should apply to all humanity.

Human rights - and by extension, the terms of the UN declaration - have always been circumstantial. They are fine words - and I really don't mean that in a negative way - but fine words do not make any difference unless there is a common agreement about what those words mean and what happens if you don't adhere to them. That level of agreement will never be achieved, so basically, like beauty, ones human rights are in the eye of the beholder.

One could point out that Article 13 is in contravention of Covid laws and so the UK is contravening human rights. Some people have argued that. And in technical point of fact, they are entirely correct. It has always been held that the UN declaration - which is non-binding anyway - may be overridden by national laws and circumstances. According to the UN Declaration, I may get in my car and go wherever I want. According to the law of the country I may not.

And it is not universal because if it were, then there wouldn't be any contraventions of it. The fact that people and nations continue to act in ways which other people and nations believe they shouldn't is evidence that it isn't universal, and none of us has a corner on being in a position to lecture others on how they should behave according to our lights.

It isn't that I have, nor voice, no opinion on there actions of other nations, and many times I abhor them. But I have seen enough of the world to know that we do not create change by telling people they must act as we tell them to. It doesn't work for our teenagers - why would it work for nations? We have to lead by example, and by discussion, not by demands.

And I would remind people that the 18 nations who were instrumental in drawing up the UN declaration were not entirely representative of the world; Eleanor Roosevelt, who chaired the drafting committee, represented a country that, to this day, still executes people (something many countries find in contravention of human rights) and where people are treated differently by the justice system based on their skin colour. And I wouldn't absolve the UK of questions about some of their actions either. The problem with judging others is that you have to be very certain your glass house is projectile proof.

@GreenlandTheMovie

Wouldn't go there if you paid me £1000 to have a free holiday there!

In no way would I ever spend any of my money in such a corrupt, wicked country which tolerates the appalling treatment of so many people who have grown rich out of the misery of other human beings.

I actually had some people from Dubai stay in one of my properties, and they behaved in such an appalling, demanding and rude way that I refunded them and told them to go and stay in a hotel instead.

See now this is an example of the point made earlier. A previous poster DionetheDiabolist has said that she is due to have a free holiday there and it's either that or have no holiday. For me, it would be a no-brainer but, I don't want to go to Dubai anyway, not ever. Even if the country were the best in the world with perfect treatment of all people, all the time, the heat would kill me and that would be my reason for rejecting it. As it is, I can quite happily say that I won't go and I could dress it up for righteous reasons. I'd be disingenuous though so I'm upfront that it's not a country I'd visit anyway - and then condemn the mal-treatment of women.

So, in your case then GreenlandTheMovie, do you have other holiday options? Are you able to afford a holiday elsewhere? Would you forego any holiday because of mal-treatment of women in the holiday country of your choice - knowing that you can't have a holiday AT ALL? Or are you just chucking in that £1000 because it's just words?

Perhaps £1k isn't that much to you; it isn't to many people (apparently) on MN. What if it were £10m for a free holiday there? Still not going?

Or you should @MangoFeverDream

@Pimlicojo

I've visited Dubai many times for work (I'm not an Influencer though!). While I've enjoyed the experience whilst there I would never choose to holiday there or visit for any reason other than work. It doesn't sit comfortably with my personal values.

It sits comfortably enough though?

[quote LexMitior]@Rowenasemolina - none of what you have posted is endorsed by Britain, or its law. You are trying to suggest an equivalence between a state that systemically oppresses some of its people, and another which has laws which aim to prevent slavery and crimes done to vulnerable people. There is a massive difference between those two states, and I'm confident you know that.

Crimes against or exploitation of the vulnerable are heartbreaking - that does not mean that they are endorsed by the authorities here.[/quote]
I am not saying trafficking torture and rape is endorsed by uk authorities. I am saying it is implicitly endorsed, and colluded with by a significant proportion of the population, including mumsnetters, and their friends and relations.

I am saying if you want to actively work to eliminate trafficking, rape, torture and slavery, there are things the uk population can do here and now, today.

And the three areas I am best personally acquainted with are cannabis farms, stag dos in Easter Europe, and clothing made in sweat shops.

If everyone horrified by human rights abuses in Dubai could transfer some of that horror to the idea of supporting these industries, that would be progress

OP I have refused to holiday there for all the reasons mentioned by previous posts. I also because black people are treated appallingly.

@Nonamesavail

Wouldn't go for all the money in the world. People denying the problems need help.

This is just disingenuous hyperbole as you don't have the option of 'all the money in the world', so why say it? It sounds really silly.

I agree OP, I would never want to visit a country like Dubai or other Middle Eastern country with such repressive laws against women and such human rights abuses, and yes, I do judge people who go there on holiday conveniently ignoring that! (It also doesn't appeal to me as a holiday destination anyway, seems rather gross and excessive bling and extravagance with little to do apart from go to shopping malls and lie by a pool, all for the wealthy and tourists contrasted with abject poverty of those 'serving' them....).

Well people will always try and rationalise their holiday choices but what it basically boils down to is they don’t think it will impact them personally so they don’t care.

This is why on a thread a few days ago, various people were raving above how great Moscow is and they can’t wait to return despite knowing that it’s a potentially dangerous place for visible minorities (including those wearing religious symbols), openly and suspected gay people and political oppositionists.

@MangoFeverDream I am not nieve in the slightest.

You, however, appear completely blind to the slavery happening in the uk right now. If you are in a city, I can guarantee that there are illiterate, underfed, child slaves working now this moment, with no medical care, no contact with their families and no hope for the future, less than 10 miles from you.( and if you are not in a city, then within 60 miles)