How do women square holidaying in Dubai with the lived reality of UAE women?

[Bouncealot]

Never understood a friend raving about the luxury, lack of crime, cleanliness, attentiveness of hotel and retail staff, when I had watched documentaries on slave labour, especially Philippine and Pakistani people denied passports, sleeping on kitchen floors and UAEs refusal to give stats on FGM to WHO. Just listened to Woman’s Hour discussion on the Princess Latifa case. It seems not a subject for discussion when people are planning ‘sunshine breaks’.
IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

You could say this about a lot of tourist destinations, particularly outside of Europe, though. If nothing else, how does grinding poverty right outside the doors of those fenced in, 5* luxury, all-inclusive resort not ruin the holiday? How do you just ignore the street-children sleeping outside the hotel door when walking to your escorted car or tourist bus?

People don't want to see it, so they don't.

Yes I've never understood why people would choose to holiday in Dubai or Saudi Arabia (or similar) for this exact reason. Neighbours always go on about how amazing it is. I couldn't think of a more bland holiday first of all; nor could I stomach holidaying in a place that could have you thrown into prison for not being married to your partner and holding hands with them in public (or sharing a hotel room) as has been reported occasionally about tourists; nor a place which systematically represses women and other workers. Thoroughly repugnant and yes - people are wrong for not considering the politics of a place before they visit. Shame.

I've been there and hated it.
I didn't feel safe and hated getting stared at.
The staff are so attentive it made me feel uncomfortable and it didn't feel like a real place by how clean and smooth everything looked.
We should grant asylum to any women trying to get out of there.

I agree. I wouldn’t go there.

People are there right now to avoid COVID restrictions, so that’s another reason!

@AnyFucker

Denial. Ignorance. Don’t really give a fuck.

Take your pick

That's the sum of it!

@Bouncealot

Pre 9/11 I met a woman on a course who hosted dinner parties for members of the Taliban (her DP worked for a high profile charity at the time). I asked her how she felt about women being stoned to death in football stadiums for reading books and wearing make up. She walked away. No one backed me up. I feel like a lone voice on such matters that I only raise my head once in a blue moon!

Dinner parties where? I doubt this happened.

Let us not forget our own 'dear' Queen is besties with Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al-Maktoum - they both love horse racing and he is often her guest at Ascot. And people wonder by M&H wanted to distance themselves from the RF....

Dubai is a concrete cesspit covered in blood diamonds and slave labour.

@Moondust001

because the human rights issues are not something that are immediately obvious there, they continently ignore them.

Whilst I abhor the treatment of women (and actually, often of men too) in some countries - not just the UAE - I think people need to be cautious. What we consider to ne human rights (or think we do) is not necessarily the same thing as what others define as human rights. Equally, assuming that we are "better at" human rights ignores the infringements of human rights that exist in our own societies.

What has happened to Princess Latifa is, of course, entirely wrong and it is entirely unacceptable hold someone prisoner who has not committed a crime. Quite rightly people are expressing a view on this and bringing pressure to bear. But it is my experience that broader differences of opinion are better tackled by dialogue rather than condemnation. I do not agree with the way women are treated in some other countries (or, for that matter, often in the UK) but when we discuss and debate we may influence and perhaps change things, albeit more slowly than we would perhaps hope. When we condemn we leave people with no alternative - we say they are wrong, and they say we are wrong, and that is where nothing changes at all.

While I agree that often human rights is a phrase banded about with little context, I do think that a definition exists that is universal. I do believe that the UN declaration is accepted widely enough on a global scale to be taken as a definition that should apply to all humanity.

I clearly remember having discussions at university with lecturers arguing that women's rights should have a cultural context, it hadn't occurred to them that women in different places might have the same aspirations as those in Europe and should be afforded the same freedoms. I feel it's a dangerous road when we say human rights should exist in the context of culture.

Personally I have been to Morocco a few times, it's not a democracy and has human rights issues, but is more tolerant than many places, I personally didn't feel in any danger. Like I said I wouldn't go to Cyprus, how do you decide? I love to travel but stay away from package resort type places, especially in third world countries where they feel quite exploitative.

I don't know, feels like being ethical is really difficult these days.

You cannot arguably do very much about the labour conditions in a country that manufactures a product except not buy it

But people buy it cause it's cheap.

Why is it a problem for women to solve when men have created it? Do you judge men who work and holiday in these places too?

I love the outraged defensiveness coming from some people who travel there and don't want to be judged for it.

Honestly?

Because the women it's affecting aren't white, so they are either a) no inconsequential to the holidaymaker as to be unnoticed or b) they don't care precisely because the women concerned aren't white.

I think a lot of people see influencers and Insta models posting their glamorous Dubai holidays and want to copy but in reality those insta models are getting pissed and shitted on and beaten by a rich Arab for a free holiday

This does happen but a lot of the influencers are getting paid to be there as Dubai are pushing tourism & also lots of the influencers want to go there as lack of covid restrictions means they can shill their crap.

I don't go to Dubai, but there is always a whiff of Islamophobia about these threads.

I lived in Dubai for a couple of months for work a few years ago and thought it the most horrific place. Agree with you OP. I can’t understand the attraction.

I will never set foot there, not even if I were offered a free, all expenses paid, 5 star holiday. Going there as a tourist would be condoning the way they treat women and workers.

Selfishly, I wouldn't go to the Middle Eastern countries more from a concern that they also do have some rules that catch out tourists (particularly rape and some banned medical products) rather than purely from objecting to human rights policies.

Refreshingly honest. I suspect most people who claim to refuse to go to/through these places/take a job there are really doing it for fear of what could happen to them or their family, not necessarily solely because of what other people are going through.

A: We have x job for you. Here are the benefits...
B: You treat your women like trash, no thank you. (More like, 'I'm not really sure how my family and I as foreigners will be treated, what with your dodgy human rights laws').

A: You'll be travelling through x Country...
B: They treat their women like trash, no thank you.
(More like, 'If anything happens, we may get caught in the crosswires of this country with no proper human rights laws')

Western men take advantage of it. You think that we are so progressive but we're not. The only thing protecting us from the same scenario is the law. I was living in Asia and western men were exploiting women in poverty. They also exploit lack of child protection. I often came up against Western men with a chip on their shoulders about Western women. They actually moved to countries lacking in human rights laws to take advantage of women desperate to leave.

Tekoa - I think that is bang out of order. Can you point to any comment in this thread that has a 'whiff of islamaphobia'? I respect other religions and accept that with religion come beliefs that might not match my own. This is not what we are talking about here. The abuse and human rights issues referred to have nothing to do with religious beliefs

For the record, OP YANBU.

1. Ignorance is bliss

1. Why is it down to women when men are doing the oppressing of UAR women? Surely your question should be how do MEN square it when they're part of the class the oppresses those women.

PSA: It is not up to women to undo the damage of men

Western men take advantage of it. You think that we are so progressive but we're not. The only thing protecting us from the same scenario is the law. I was living in Asia and western men were exploiting women in poverty.

The behaviour of some western men Ive seen in Thailand is disgusting.

There’s nothing wrong with visiting a place like Dubai. The vast majority of countries are horribly run and don’t value human rights the same way that Western countries do.

So if you only want to holiday in countries with good governments that respect human rights ... then you should just stick to Western Europe. And that’s .... kind of sad

I think we need to have a good long look at ourselves before pointing the finger. To be completely honest, our culture is not a great deal better. Particularly as far as the treatment of non-white/non- British women and children go.

I’ve been involved in the care and education of freed modern slave women and children for many years, through several charities and hosting.

There are 3 main areas where the average British mumsnetter and her friends and relatives might be supporting modern slavery

Most immediately is the south Asian children trafficked into the uk to work as sex slaves and cannabis slaves. Girls into sex slavery, boys into cannabis farming. Most of us in cities will be sitting not 10 Miles away from illiterate, under nourished, are currently tending cannabis farms. I have met some of these children. An 11 year old who could pass as 5, for example. No medical treatment, no pay, no education, no contact with their families for years. And the same organisations provide child slaves both to the sex industry and to cannabis farms, so anyone turning a blind eye to cannabis is turning a blind eye to both

Then there are the stag dos to Eastern European destinations. Again, based largely in trafficked women forced into sex slavery. Your partner or brother might not attend the strip club/ lap dancers/ ‘hostess evenings’ offered as part of the package. However if they attend the hog roast/ go carting/ white water rafting provided by the same company, again, they are paying into the whole industry.

I have hosted several women who fell victim to these ‘Stag do’ companies in Eastern Europe, having been trafficked there from poorer countries. Typically they will later be sold on, not young enough to attract the punters like they once could, but still young enough to bear children. They may be sold on into Amsterdam or London as prostitutes, or as wives.

The last area I wang to mention is garment factories. I have taught in schools for the destitute in some poorer parts of the world. Somebody took issue with my use of the word ‘destitute’ before, when I said that, saying it was demeaning. That person clearly doesn’t understand what true destitution is. Destitution is demeaning. Naming it isn’t

And if I could I introduce you to some of my students it would break your heart. You would cry for a month. Happy, energetic, resilient, hopeful, cheeky , intelligent ( some of them) young people, all destined to be worked to death sewing clothing g and shoes 14 hours a day 7 days a week for wealthy westoners.

Our schools aim to give them qualifications and teach them a trade, and a precious few escape, but in the end, there is often no alternative, no other way of paying for a mingy one meal a day, except that 14 hour shift.

We can do very little about Dubai, but we can do something about the millions of cases of slavery, torture and rape our culture supports closer to home