How do women square holidaying in Dubai with the lived reality of UAE women?

[Bouncealot]

Never understood a friend raving about the luxury, lack of crime, cleanliness, attentiveness of hotel and retail staff, when I had watched documentaries on slave labour, especially Philippine and Pakistani people denied passports, sleeping on kitchen floors and UAEs refusal to give stats on FGM to WHO. Just listened to Woman’s Hour discussion on the Princess Latifa case. It seems not a subject for discussion when people are planning ‘sunshine breaks’.
IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

Yes, this has out me off making there as a future holiday choice. There are other places that are nicer.....anyway, I’ve heard Dubai is tacky.

I feel mixed (I've never been) - on the one hand, I think it's appalling that women are treated as second class citizens and immigrant workers as way below that, but on the other hand, lots of popular holiday destinations have appalling human rights abuses too, just less focused on women. China is an obvious one, Mexico, Phillipines, South Africa, Uganda. Selfishly, I wouldn't go to the Middle Eastern countries more from a concern that they also do have some rules that catch out tourists (particularly rape and some banned medical products) rather than purely from objecting to human rights policies.

Looking at Human Rights Watch, the only countries with human rights as good as the UK are Canada and some European countries (Scandinavia, Austria, Switzerland and Germany) so doesn't open up a wide pool of holiday destinations...

I’ve been offered numerous jobs in the Middle East over the years, some of the £4000 a week and I turned them down. I couldn’t go somewhere where women are treated so badly. I’d be scared leaving the house!

@RexMyDarling

How can anyone? It’s not a gendered issue from our perspective is it? How can men from our society find it anymore acceptable than women? How can anyone think going to those places is acceptable as essentially by going there you are funding the anti-women laws.

I agree OP - and I agree with this also. It's not just visiting women who should be held accountable for their choices.

It's also not enough to boycott, that's easy for many people who wouldn't venture there anyway for various reasons. A bright light needs to be shone on this 'paradise'. I've read about the giant sewerage mechanism, out of site. That sums it up for me, all the grotesque is hidden away but very, very prevalent.

I have a colleague who taught in Saudi, the stories she tells are chilling, I've no idea how she didn't up and leave, but I guess people distance themselves and feel if they aren't actively doing a bad thing it's fine. Tacit acceptance isn't problematic for some, especially if it suits their agenda, be that work or holiday.

I'd never go myself and I've struck Cyprus off my holiday list after that poor girl was arrested for going to the police to report rape.

I might be going there next year. How do I square it? It's a free holiday and I can't afford another one.

A lot of parallels actually with young people (including a lot of my friends) banging on about climate change and the gig economy then happily bankrolling the drug industry with all the appalling human impacts in the UK and abroad. How anyone can buy cocaine then claim they care about other people is just beyond me.

I’m against the death penalty but I’ve been to Disney world in Florida

I was living in Thailand for a while and saw sexual exploitation on the streets. People turn a blind eye. It's a hub for human trafficking as are many parts of Africa as well as the Middle East. China is currently systematically raping women in concentration camps.

Yet, we buy goods from these countries. We have cheap products made by children. The Queen is a bestie with the King of Dubai, they share a love of horses yet his two daughters have been held hostage by him for years. Women in the Middle East are held hostage by laws and they are deserving of refugee status but women aren't very important - remember.

I’ve been and I’m not the type of person others are describing on here.

I know people that work there and conversed with a lot of different nationalities while I was there.

Yes, there are human rights issues and some nationalities are looked down upon by others, but on the other hand I spoke to a lot of people who were really grateful of the opportunities in the Gulf. They had a far superior lifestyle than what they had in their home countries and this isn’t just workers from Europe.

I think the more people highlight the issues, particularly expats, the more likely it is that things will change. There have already been major changes relating to human/workers/women’s rights in the Middle East. If we all just refuse to go there for any reason there’s nobody external advocating for change.

As a country we ourselves haven’t always recognised women’s/workers/LGBTQ rights. It’s not that many years ago that our own government had policies that we are now horrified by.

I know I’m in the minority here but even though I disagree with the corruption, legal system and governance I don’t see how anything is going to change for the better by boycotting the Gulf completely.

Presuming you are in the UK, how do you square living in a country that is not adequately let alone prioritise funding in research and treatment of childhood cancers?

the list could go on

I love patronising and superior people who are blissfully turning a blind eye to anything else than their point

lots of popular holiday destinations have appalling human rights abuses too, just less focused on women. China is an obvious one, Mexico, Phillipines, South Africa, Uganda.

I have no desire to visit the UAE so it's easy for me to boycott however I have visited some of the above.

I agree, I would never visit Dubai while there are such terrible human rights issues for women, migrant workers and LGB.

@dinglehopper1

Well both sexes ignore it & I don't think it's hard to understand why.

We buy all sorts of crap from countries like China cause it cheap, do we care about the lives & treatment of those who make it?
Air travel in general has a huge impact on climate change which causes problems like drought in other countries.
Avocados are pretty unethical but we still eat them.
I could go on & on.

I also agree with this very much. We all accept what we want to, for our own reasons; ambivalence, selfishness, insert any other.

I read on another thread this week a post where the writer was angry that images had been posted, stating that the OP had 'no right to invade her brain'. I think many people are of that mindset and am/have been guilty of that myself.

And how many people reading this thread on Apple products, who are known for their poor working conditions in China?

I have a very uneasy relationship with a country which is currently committing a genocide. I have friends there, a passion for the history and culture and a lot of experiences there that I hold dearly.

I was planning a trip there pre-COVID emerging. I do think it's possible to square travelling somewhere with a critical view of social injustice.

I am not convinced that is what Dubai influencers are actually doing though.

@roarfeckingroarr

I spent some time in India and Burma last year. I'm sure MNers would frown at that too for different reasons.

The answer re Dubai is that people are more interested in a cheap hot holiday than underlying social injustice, funnily enough.

They probably wouldn't. Dubai's human rights abuses are appalling and I have no desire to go there, but let's be honest - it gets so much specific, targeted criticism on threads like this because it's seen as tacky and lower-class. You get a much easier ride for going somewhere with equally abhorrent human rights abuses but which is seen as an adventurous destination and a cultural experience. There's a lot of snobbery mixed up in the very legitimate criticism of tourists to Dubai. It's also very easy to be sanctimonious about not doing something as a moral stance if you didn't want to do it in the first place, which is where a lot of MNers stand on the UAE.

targeted criticism on threads like this because it's seen as tacky and lower-class.

I agree hence the Essex comment. I don't see threads about not going to Mexico or Thailand.

I think the question of how we best approach international diplomacy and whether it is morally right for individuals to provide financial support and a veneer of acceptability to abusive regimes are separate.

I also don't think it is necessary for us to be perfect in order to be able to condemn the institutionalised abuse of women or the imprisonment of rape victims or child brides in the US or India's involvement in the kidnap of Latifa from that boat or the mass rapes of Uighur women being perpetrated by the Chinese state, etc.

Nobody has to accept abuse as "different values". Not when it's happening in the UK and not when it's happening elsewhere.

I think a lot of people see influencers and Insta models posting their glamorous Dubai holidays and want to copy but in reality those insta models are getting pissed and shitted on and beaten by a rich Arab for a free holiday. It's a really common thing... rich guys in Dubai will invite nice looking women for a free Dubai holiday but then get treated so badly, I don't see why it's seen as 'goals' but anyway, sometimes the person having the glamorous holiday is actually a victim

Dubai is an absolute anomaly. I know it relatively well from a professional corporate perspective, as a tourist as well as previously interested in real estate investment opportunities there.

In answer to the original poster's question it is simply a multiple dimension world. The locals are literally in another shielded and highly controlled world (especially women and girls) from the international crowd. The two polar cultural and behaviour opposites don't mix but live side by side. Not saying this is right but it is just how it is.

In short there are many sides to this fascinating place. It's recent historical transformation is one the most significant built environment in recent decades outside of China and the Far East.

I can dive deeper into some of the many issues and nuances but these have been very well documented in western media as I refer you (if interested to learn more) to an article published in recent years which still holds true today. See link:

www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/dark-side-dubai-1664368.html

My feelings are mixed towards Dubai. Yes it is spectacular with many world records for show pieces like the buildings and man made everything including islands of course with a planned even taller structure to follow (possibly)?

It is a unique mix whereby the local Emirati is only a small minority but they rule absolutely and essentially import international staff for everything as well as leading experts to do the cutting edge stuff.

The latest transformation from a former discerning super luxury holiday destination (hence the seven star flagship hotel complex etc) to cheap low cost low budget rent a crowd larger louts is a bit of a surprise. Nothing wrong with that per se as each to their own as one must be mindful of diversity and a choice of options to cater for all. Dubai is also a stop over short break destination connecting many continents given its role a global aviation hub.

What is an alarming contrast is how the international bikini cocktail crowd can be moments away from the very religious and conservative locals with their traditional religious requirements. That is the bit that I found most astonishing. Females obviously have two very different expectations and requirements between local and international expats or tourists etc. I cannot really understand how the two can blend but then again it is just business as religious requirements and cultural grounding applies only to the original inhabitants. Being a strict religious nation do make sure you meet all your financial debt obligations and stay solvent!

It's worth a visit but also good to understand what's behind the story showcased and who helped to build it and make it what it is financed originally with the assistance of neighbouring Abu Dhabi oil money and run by many expat specialists under the authority of the locals.

It will try to evolve to reinvent itself and make sure (finances permitting) to continue being an international business and technology showcase but with bits like the requirements and lifestyle choices for local females off limits subject to their particular rules and expectations.

There are plenty of professional expats in these places who don't care - they facilitate and have nice lives based on grim social conditions and slave labour which they decide to minimise to make themselves feel okay. You cannot arguably do very much about the labour conditions in a country that manufactures a product except not buy it. Earning a living, writing nice things about repressive regimes is totally different and actually that is what they should be judged for.

@SteveBrexit

Presuming you are in the UK, how do you square living in a country that is not adequately let alone prioritise funding in research and treatment of childhood cancers?

the list could go on

I love patronising and superior people who are blissfully turning a blind eye to anything else than their point

I can see where you're coming from but you're comparing apples and oranges. There are many things that the government doesn't provide treatment for and arguably should. Why are you pinpointing childhood cancers specifically? Are other cancers less-deserving of attention? Best not to get emotive because you really have no idea of other posters' situations and experiences.

Calling people patronising and superior for having an opinion about a country that denigrates, abuses and denies a WHOLE SEX safe living is an issue for all women and it's worthy of discussion.

In some ways, I see your point. Reading about Princess Latifa is truly bizarre.
However, as a very experienced traveller, I truly believe you go to see the world as it is - not to change the world or to see what you wish it was. Dubai is what it is. It is horrifying though.

@oil0W0lio

one could argue that it is better to engage with and trade with these countries because that gives some chance of leverage, some way to incentivise them to change to line up with the norms of modern liberal democracies It's probably a pretty thin argument though😳

The Chinese state is currently committing genocide.

The trade argument doesn't seem so effective to me.