How do women square holidaying in Dubai with the lived reality of UAE women?

[Bouncealot]

Never understood a friend raving about the luxury, lack of crime, cleanliness, attentiveness of hotel and retail staff, when I had watched documentaries on slave labour, especially Philippine and Pakistani people denied passports, sleeping on kitchen floors and UAEs refusal to give stats on FGM to WHO. Just listened to Woman’s Hour discussion on the Princess Latifa case. It seems not a subject for discussion when people are planning ‘sunshine breaks’.
IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

I’m sure bbcthree made a documentary called the missing princess @Bouncealot have a look and see if it’s still available. It was brilliant

@PineapplePower

Sure they can go home and spend their earnings. Once they've got their passport back

You don’t get it. They send money back to their families weekly or monthly. It’s not spending money they toss around blithely, they use it to better their family circumstances.

Yes, abuses do happen. They know that when they apply to these jobs. But the pay is so attractive that they will risk bad employers. And the majority do come home much better off.

Who are you to say they shouldn’t do it?

Pretty sure I've not said they shouldn't.

Just because abuse happens elsewhere it doesn't mean it's right. And I'll continue to judge a place which has decided homosexuality is a crime.

If people can holiday in Dubai (which is the topic of this thread) and balance what it's like below the glitz and glamour then good for them.

I'm saying I couldn't

Well said PineapplePower.

Just to clarify when I referred to workers spending their earnings I clearly wasn't saying they were "tossing it around blithely". I'm not judging the workers.

No idea! I’ve been to Dubai and it was the most lecherous yet misogynistic place I’ve ever been in my life.

Would never go there ever again

I’m fairly sure no one was in any way attempting to judge the working population of the region, who are no doubt doing exactly what we do here: using what little power they have to choose higher rates of pay or taking what jobs they can find. That sounds like a deliberate deflection.

[quote Bouncealot][/quote]
I think it's important to distinguish between the UAE and other countries in the Middle East, particularly when it comes to matters relating to women's rights. There is a wide disparity in attitudes to women across the region and it would be unfair to view all countries as being the same, much as it would be unfair to say that all western counties share the same ideals or cultural values - the fact that many Spaniards continue to support bullfighting is not something you would expect a British person to have to justify or apologise for.

The UAE has experienced its share of challenges during its relatively short existence. It has sought to rectify issues that have arisen and its Government, which is made up of a significant percentage of women, has generally moved quickly and decisively to address such issues, most notably through the introduction of legislation.

Those who break the laws aimed at protecting domestic workers are likely to face sizeable fines, long periods of imprisonment and, in the case of expats, expulsion from the country.

No country is immune to the issue of worker abuse, including the UK, but it would be inaccurate and thus unfair to single out Dubai for criticism.

This thread is entitled How do women square holidaying in Dubai with the lived reality of UAE women?. As a parent of two teenage girls these issues are important to me and I just wanted to share some personal insight so as to better inform the debate.

Badlad is correct it was indeed 2006 - happy to be corrected.

Dubai has draconian laws which are well known. Kissing in public, being gay, wearing 'immodest' dress, denouncing religion (apostasy) is punishable by death, Sharia law, paternity laws where women have to seek permission from their male guardians, 80% of women don't work, rape is punishable by law as is sex outside marriage. To suggest it's somehow libertine is a joke. Political activists have been known to be taken hostage, tortured and killed.

Women's lives are governed by men and while they do have 'rights', those rights are dependent on permission from their male guardians. Marriage, divorce and guardianship of children are dependent on male permission. There is hardly any protection for abuse victims, judgements are subjective on whether or not a woman was acting within the authority of her guardianship.

Regarding domestic workers, Dubai in effect has a legal tier system and female migrant workers are at the bottom of that tier. Especially female rape victims who are punished or women who are pregnant outside marriage.

@Russellbrandshair

No idea! I’ve been to Dubai and it was the most lecherous yet misogynistic place I’ve ever been in my life.

Would never go there ever again

No idea! I’ve been to Dubai and it was the most lecherous yet misogynistic place I’ve ever been in my life.

I take this with a pinch of salt. From my experience, people in Dubai are too busy trying to make a living to lech on women.

@thegcatsmother

I found it odd. Amazing how it has been built from desert; really strange to see Debenhams and Waitrose there in the mall, but oddest of all for me was hearing the adhan sounding round the shopping mall. It was the juxtaposition of God and Mammon that I found odd. I also found it a bit jarring when women in abayas were sporting very tight jeans and stripper heels. Db said an abaya was the equivalent of a mac there.

What's so odd? The adhan is a reminder to prayer, wherever you might be.

Your comment about the jeans and 'stripper' heels again smacks of holding Muslims to higher standards. Stop policing Muslim women (or any other) bodies.

Not sure I would want to go again.

Not sure I would want to go again.

Not sure they care!

I have refused to go there. I just can't bring myself to holiday there or anywhere that treats women as they do.

I believe it is impossible and dare I suggest not necessarily right to make judgements on overseas geographies, cultures and faiths based on a western democratic viewpoint and standards for benchmarking
At least some wise word here.

Say, we live in a self-centred and rightful culture where we believe everything should be judged based on our own values and perceptions.

Ultimately, we are very good as a society at doing the sane with our neighbours, price we know nothing about but read about on social media.

This insular self-centred view of the world is really not much different to racism.

Yanbu. Plastic paradise with a dark, medieval underbelly.

I've never wanted to go but oh has mentioned it a couple of times. I've told him he can go alone.

Plastic paradise with a dark, medieval underbelly
You nailed it🔨
It's like an old testament theme park 😱

@poppyzbrite4

Dubai has draconian laws which are well known. Kissing in public, being gay, wearing 'immodest' dress, denouncing religion (apostasy) is punishable by death, Sharia law, paternity laws where women have to seek permission from their male guardians, 80% of women don't work, rape is punishable by law as is sex outside marriage. To suggest it's somehow libertine is a joke. Political activists have been known to be taken hostage, tortured and killed.

Women's lives are governed by men and while they do have 'rights', those rights are dependent on permission from their male guardians. Marriage, divorce and guardianship of children are dependent on male permission. There is hardly any protection for abuse victims, judgements are subjective on whether or not a woman was acting within the authority of her guardianship.

Regarding domestic workers, Dubai in effect has a legal tier system and female migrant workers are at the bottom of that tier. Especially female rape victims who are punished or women who are pregnant outside marriage.

Having lived in Dubai for a number of years I can assure you that public displays of affection are commonplace and will not result in your execution.

Despite what you may think it is entirely legal for unmarried couples to cohabit and while homosexuality is technically illegal it is widespread and tolerated - there are no shortage of 'gay bars' in Dubai if you know where to look.

Privacy laws are very strict, which is why so many celebrities visit Dubai - there are no paparazzi. This extends to include commenting negatively on social or in the traditional media. You could view this as censoring free speech but others might argue that there is something to be said for a society that values positivity over negativity - I will leave you to decide whether you feel trolling people is a good or bad thing.

Religious and cultural tolerance is encouraged and outside of witchcraft you are free to practice your faith - The UAE is host to churches, chapels, temples and synagogues but there is little appreciation for those who seek to undermine the beliefs of others though.

The Government is a strong advocate for encouraging Emirati women into the workplace and is active in many areas such pay equality and maternal working rights. As previously mentioned many senior Government roles are held by women and it would be inaccurate to believe that significant numbers of women are being stopped from entering the workplace by Government policy.

The UAE is an Islamic country and to a greater or lesser extent aspects of Sharia Law underpin their approach to many aspects of day-to-day life but in practice this rarely results in significant issues for those who live here and you certainly aren't going to be sentenced to death for wearing a short skirt to go shopping.

In conclusion, Emirati women would tell you that the country has come a long way in its 50 years but that it still has a way to go. This could be said of almost any country around the World.

Say, we live in a self-centred and rightful culture where we believe everything should be judged based on our own values and perceptions.

Sounds like a good summation of Dubai.

@Russellbrandshair

No idea! I’ve been to Dubai and it was the most lecherous yet misogynistic place I’ve ever been in my life.

Would never go there ever again

Try Yates in Romford on a Saturday night...

@Factsareimportant That is absolute bullshit and you know it. Do you work for the tourist board. Sanitised rubbish. If it's such a paradise why are women fleeing and claiming asylum?

Only 20% of women work, how is that a successful drive to get women into the workplace?

The status of women in Dubai is equivalent to pet and owner, they have no right to self determination. In no country in the Western world is the daughter of a leader being held hostage by her own father. By excusing it, you are colluding in it.

Everything I said is true.

Having lived in Dubai for a number of years I can assure you that public displays of affection are commonplace and will not result in your execution.

You know nothing. You probably lived in a gated community and have no experience of what day to day living is like for people. Petting and kissing in public are considered affronts to public decency and can result in imprisonment or deportation.

Despite what you may think it is entirely legal for unmarried couples to cohabit and while homosexuality is technically illegal it is widespread and tolerated - there are no shortage of 'gay bars' in Dubai if you know where to look.

Being gay is illegal and punishable by up to ten years in prison. Gay clubs are illegal and often shut down by the government.

Privacy laws are very strict, which is why so many celebrities visit Dubai - there are no paparazzi. This extends to include commenting negatively on social or in the traditional media. You could view this as censoring free speech but others might argue that there is something to be said for a society that values positivity over negativity - I will leave you to decide whether you feel trolling people is a good or bad thing.

That's called censorship.

Religious and cultural tolerance is encouraged and outside of witchcraft you are free to practice your faith - The UAE is host to churches, chapels, temples and synagogues but there is little appreciation for those who seek to undermine the beliefs of others though.

Article 312 of the penal code states:

“It is punishable by imprisonment and a fine — or one of these two punishments — whoever commits any of the following offences:

1. Abuse towards any of the rituals or practices of Islam.

1. Insult of any of the divine, recognized religions.

1. Condoning or encouraging sin, publicizing it, or acting in a way that tempts other to partake in it.

1. A Muslim who knowingly eats pork.

If any of these are committed publicly, the punishment is imprisonment for no less than one year, or a fine.”

All citizens of the UAE are deemed to be Muslims. Conversion to other religions (and by implication, advocacy of atheism) is forbidden and the legal punishment for conversion from Islam is death. Although in practice there have been no known prosecutions or legal punishments for apostasy in court.

That's not freedom of religion.

The Government is a strong advocate for encouraging Emirati women into the workplace and is active in many areas such pay equality and maternal working rights. As previously mentioned many senior Government roles are held by women and it would be inaccurate to believe that significant numbers of women are being stopped from entering the workplace by Government policy.

Women need permission from their male guardians to work. Only 20% work. How can you have equality and male guardianship? It's impossible.

The UAE is an Islamic country and to a greater or lesser extent aspects of Sharia Law underpin their approach to many aspects of day-to-day life but in practice this rarely results in significant issues for those who live here and you certainly aren't going to be sentenced to death for wearing a short skirt to go shopping.

Sharia law is subjective. Secondly, there are laws governing so called 'immodest' dress.

In conclusion, Emirati women would tell you that the country has come a long way in its 50 years but that it still has a way to go. This could be said of almost any country around the World.

No it can't. Leaders of other countries aren't holding their daughter's hostage.

Say, we live in a self-centred and rightful culture where we believe everything should be judged based on our own values and perceptions.

We are not talking about the way people eat different foods, native to the region, in a different way or how they choose to bury/ cremate their dead.

We are talking about the rights and public freedoms of half of the population. It’s not trivial and it is not on the same level as an irrational dislike of someone’s skin colour. Men would never have to live like this, would never expect to be told to, and would start fights if someone tried. We are not in any way obliged to spend money supporting men who treat women like this.

This extends to include commenting negatively on social or in the traditional media.
It also extends to private WhatsApp messages and social media comments made BEFORE you even set foot there. If someone has it in for you, they can dredge up stuff you posted years ago and have you arrested.

Factsareimportant The UAE is an Islamic country and to a greater or lesser extent aspects of Sharia Law underpin their approach to many aspects of day-to-day life but in practice this rarely results in significant issues for those who live here and you certainly aren't going to be sentenced to death for wearing a short skirt to go shopping.

And its that "rarely results in" qualifier that summaries the problems. If the State doesn't like you, you can get into a lot of trouble for things others will get away with. If the Someone Else doesn't like you, you can also get into a lot of trouble that others will get away with.

Sharia Law is a perfectly adequate system of law but due to its nature it does struggle to assimilate updates and some modern concepts. But the biggest problem is that is interpreted by non-legally qualified religious clerics, some of whom have a level of legal education so low or non-existent that we simply do not come across it at all in other countries.

This means that there can never be a true separation of powers within Dubai until this problem is addressed, but judges are not reliable defenders of the law. (there also problems with the separation of powers in many other aspects too but in general this relates to the piecemeal enforcement of the law which leads to legal uncertainty and therefore only a weak recognition of the rule of law.

SharonasCorona

The adhan is not commonly heard in Cornwall, or in the bits of Belgium in which I lived. Church bells yes, the adhan, no. The oddity to me was having the mosque in the Mall; as we don't commonly see places of worship in the middle of a shopping mall in the UK.

I wasn't policing anyones body; again, outward very conformist, all enveloping garment, underneath heels and skinny jeans.

May I suggest you get off your high horse? I wince at anyone wearing stripper heels as they'll eventually damage their feet.