How do women square holidaying in Dubai with the lived reality of UAE women?

[Bouncealot]

Never understood a friend raving about the luxury, lack of crime, cleanliness, attentiveness of hotel and retail staff, when I had watched documentaries on slave labour, especially Philippine and Pakistani people denied passports, sleeping on kitchen floors and UAEs refusal to give stats on FGM to WHO. Just listened to Woman’s Hour discussion on the Princess Latifa case. It seems not a subject for discussion when people are planning ‘sunshine breaks’.
IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

By all means judge away

But if you do judge you need add others countries to your list for appealing human rights records with alarming record of violence towards women - India, Egypt, Sri Lanka, Cambodia to name a few

Dubai it’s just very much in your face and let’s be honest for many Dubai is seen as tacky so fine to be critical of those that travel there and love the bling of the place but do you really think the nice hotel they people have stayed at in India or Sri Lanka has been built paying fair wages, that they countries don’t violate human rights, don’t turn a blind eye to violence towards women

I've always thought a holiday in Dubai must be soul-killingly boring, materialistic & vulgar, and unreasonable on so many grounds - mostly the appalling human rights situation in the UAE. The news yesterday about the Princess makes it worse.

A country ruled by a man prepared to do this to his own daughter is not a country where one can or should take a "holiday."

[quote poppyzbrite4]@Factsareimportant That is absolute bullshit and you know it. Do you work for the tourist board. Sanitised rubbish. If it's such a paradise why are women fleeing and claiming asylum?

Only 20% of women work, how is that a successful drive to get women into the workplace?

The status of women in Dubai is equivalent to pet and owner, they have no right to self determination. In no country in the Western world is the daughter of a leader being held hostage by her own father. By excusing it, you are colluding in it.

Everything I said is true.[/quote]
For the record I live and work (teacher) in Dubai.

It is indeed a fact that selected members of the ruling family have sought asylum. I am not disputing that. Such an incident is not however indicative of the whole country much as the exploits of Prince Andrew should not necessarily be seen to suggest that anyone who eats in a Pizza Express in comfortable engaging in underage sex with young girls.

From my perspective I am simply providing readers of this thread with pertinent facts that might better inform the debate.

In reality around half of all Emirati women work and given than almost 30% of these have a Bachelors degree it's no surprise that a significant number have senior positions.

Here are some more facts about women and their status in the UAE...

The literacy rate of women in the UAE is 95.8%
95% of female high-school graduates pursue further education at tertiary-level institutions (compared with 80 per cent of males)
Women constitute almost two-thirds of students attending state universities and over half at private institutions.
77% of Emirati women enroll in higher education in secondary school and make up 70% of all university graduates.
56% of the UAE’s graduates in STEM courses at state universities are women.
In 2018, the UAE Cabinet endorsed legislation that ensures equal pay for men and women.
In 2012, the UAE became the first country in the Arab region to introduce a mandatory female presence in boardrooms.
Women constitute 46.6% of the work force.
Women make up 66% of the public sector workers, with 30% in leadership roles and 15% in technical and academic roles.
UAE women comprise over 40% of all employees in education, at least 35% work in the health sector and approximately 20% in social affairs.
About 75 per cent of positions in education and health sectors are occupied by women.
At the Abu Dhabi Securities Exchange, women constitute 43% of its investors while the city’s Businesswomen’s association boasts 14,000 members.
23,000 Emirati businesswomen run projects worth over $14 billion, and occupy 15% of the positions in the boards of chambers of commerce and industry nationwide.
Half of the Federal National Council are women
Women make up 30% of the diplomatic corps, where they occupy 234 positions, 42 working on missions abroad, and 7 being ambassadors

(because of COVID-19 these numbers aren't the most up to date but I think they give a decent sense of what the reality is for Emirati women)

Everyone saying what about those other countries, surely it doesn't mean we should be happy with excuse Dubai. It just means that we should also condemn such countries, no?

let's be honest

most people don't go to Dubai simply because they cannot afford the luxury hotels there

and try to make themselves feel better about their sad little financial situation.

You lose all your moral high grounds and credibility when you stop focusing on the moral aspect and start calling a place "boring, materialistic & vulgar" and clearly know nothing about it.

That the point I was making if you are condemning those that travel to Dubai for ignoring the countries violation of human rights then there are other countries you should be adding to the list. I have been to Dubai and was shocked how in your face it is I didn’t particularly like the place but it’s hypocritical of me to be critical of travellers that go there (and I have in the past) when I have turned a blind eye to issues in other countries

The other counties though are not so tacky though are they ? Maybe attract a different type of holiday maker. Cambodia is way up there for travellers to go to and constantly listed as a country that violates human rights are we so critical of the large numbers of travellers that go there (and there is certainly class snobbery going on in the bashing of influencers)

Trust me if I wanted to go to Dubai (and was allowed obv ) I could drop the cash and go now.

I will never travel to a country where gay friends could be arrested for their sexuality.

And yes of course there are other countries but the OP has specifically referenced Dubai. Where even being the rulers daughter means you have diddly protection from their misogynistic systems.

But hey! My hotel looks great on Insta and has pool butlers

What starts off as a thread about the UAE royals now mushrooms into a critique of the region's faith, laws and culture.

Essentially is it wrong to judge by free international first world western standards?

The lack of transparency, freedoms and equality is just what their religion, laws and culture is all about. It's traditional religious and those that is positively discriminated by it (men of religion) love it! Of course it is wrong but that just their religion their rules and their culture!

There are equality issues globally. The third world south Asian sub continent such as India etc have open legal discrimination. I understand (as a foreigner with little outside knowledge) it is known as a caste (?) or grading system for people not just for livestock. Perhaps more connected or knowledgeable would excuse my ignorance and correct and elaborate as required! This is not African apartheid or slavery but there sure are elements of it but its legal, religious and cultural.

Is the UK as the former colonialists now instilling cultural, religious and legal change so that equality and freedoms can be addressed? It would be ideal for female human rights but is it right and should it be done? Human rights is simply not found globally as you travel to far flung exotic spots safe in your luxurious five star international hotel compound served hand and foot with a smattering of sanitised traditional cultural showcased food, drink, dance and spa massage put on for hard currency tourist pounds and dollars.

The UAE royals always had issues with certain female members periodically escaping as with the bigger in fighting and mess in Saudi Arabia and other gulf states royal rulers.

It's how they are. Perhaps they do not want our alien modern democratic ways and the internal issues we have back home!

As a human being I wish all humans can be free and choose to live as they wish free of discrimination. But I doubt this will happen in this lifetime. Essentially you are asking for religious, cultural and legal whole scale change! A parent keeping their off spring imprisoned is just wrong and needs no excuse or discussion. However perhaps this can only be facilitated because of surrounding cultural, religious and legal environment.

My sister was supposed to be going to Dubai for a 2 week holiday this year, with her family. Other sister has been with her husband too. They loved it.
I personally wouldn't go. I find the idea very tacky, and am opposed to it for the many valid reasons outlined on this thread. I like to think I have a social conscience. However as a Primark shopper, I'm sure many would think that I have a cheek, and that I'm being hypocritical.

Only 20% of women work, how is that a successful drive to get women into the workplace?

This isn’t for lack of trying by government bodies. A lot of Gulf countries are trying very, very hard to get their native population to work, especially women.

It’s as simple as a lot of them don’t want to (and you can see it whenever you get a native in a customer-facing role).

@thegcatsmother

SharonasCorona

The adhan is not commonly heard in Cornwall, or in the bits of Belgium in which I lived. Church bells yes, the adhan, no. The oddity to me was having the mosque in the Mall; as we don't commonly see places of worship in the middle of a shopping mall in the UK.

I wasn't policing anyones body; again, outward very conformist, all enveloping garment, underneath heels and skinny jeans.

May I suggest you get off your high horse? I wince at anyone wearing stripper heels as they'll eventually damage their feet.

They don’t have mosques in the mall. It’s just sex-segregated prayer rooms, like in an airport. We have them in my workplace.

The op asked

IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

Well no not at all but that should extend to other countries

Dubai is mentioned again and again in regard to a holiday destination that is off limits for to violation of human rights. But if that is your reasoning then you should be adding other countries to your list and also being critical of those that holiday/travel to other countries that also have appalling human rights records

But vast majority of us turn a blind eye when it suits our needs

Dubai doesn't appeal to everyone and seen as tacky so fair game to be critical of those that holiday there but shouldn’t those that holiday in India be criticised too for turning a blind eye

@dontdisturbmenow

I believe it is impossible and dare I suggest not necessarily right to make judgements on overseas geographies, cultures and faiths based on a western democratic viewpoint and standards for benchmarking At least some wise word here.

Say, we live in a self-centred and rightful culture where we believe everything should be judged based on our own values and perceptions.

Ultimately, we are very good as a society at doing the sane with our neighbours, price we know nothing about but read about on social media.

This insular self-centred view of the world is really not much different to racism.

It’s not racist to criticise the very real human rights abuses and other deep shortcomings in another culture or country.

But you best get the facts straight first.

most people don't go to Dubai simply because they cannot afford the luxury hotels there

Oh I don't know - my last holiday finished with a few days at a 6* hotel in an interesting bit of the world.

And I teach young women from the UAE - I get a pretty good impression what their lives are like there ...

@thegcatsmotherthegcatsmother

The adhan is not commonly heard in Cornwall, or in the bits of Belgium in which I lived. Church bells yes, the adhan, no.

Er, yes. But we're talking about Dubai.

The oddity to me was having the mosque in the Mall; as we don't commonly see places of worship in the middle of a shopping mall in the UK.

Why is it odd? Muslims stop whatever they're doing (if safe) to pray, whether that's at home, at work or in a mall. Even Westfield London has a Multi Faith Prayer room.

I wasn't policing anyones body; again, outward very conformist, all enveloping garment, underneath heels and skinny jeans.

So what? Why do you have an issue with it?

May I suggest you get off your high horse? I wince at anyone wearing stripper heels as they'll eventually damage their feet.

May I suggest that you stop judging Muslim women? And no, your issue with 'stripper' heels isn't that they damage feet

This is why I hate threads like these, they descend into Muslim bashing pretty quickly.

I owned a property in Dubai for 10 years and used to spend about 3 months a year during that time. It is a total mix of races and ethnicity. The locals keep themselves to themselves as they make up only a small % of the population. The local (poorer) women I met worked for the government or banks usually all seemed quite happy and were given opportunities and benefits ( in many cases in excess of their abilities and inclination). They were very sweet and friendly. These were of the ''poorer'' locals (one did not ''meet'' wealthy Emirati women although they would be seen wafting round the Malls looking gorgeous in black embroidered silk chiffon and were served first). The labourers (''slaves'') who come from mostly Bangladesh and Pakistan in road building and construction are contract workers. They would probably be worse off (i.e. starve) in their own country or they would not go to Dubai.

And in South Africa, they had apartheid. To criticise that is racist. You can't criticise other countries and base them on Western standards. They have their own culture there and part of that culture was to segregate society along racial divides.

In Dubai they have their own culture and standards. Men own women and have to give them permission to work or drive. Being gay is illegal. To criticise that is racist as they have their own standards and culture. See, even women are saying not to criticise or try to change it. They agree that their own subjugation is a good thing. The fact that women are fleeing and trying to seek refugee status in other countries is just par for the course!

Stop being white saviour!

@Moondust001

because the human rights issues are not something that are immediately obvious there, they continently ignore them.

Whilst I abhor the treatment of women (and actually, often of men too) in some countries - not just the UAE - I think people need to be cautious. What we consider to ne human rights (or think we do) is not necessarily the same thing as what others define as human rights. Equally, assuming that we are "better at" human rights ignores the infringements of human rights that exist in our own societies.

What has happened to Princess Latifa is, of course, entirely wrong and it is entirely unacceptable hold someone prisoner who has not committed a crime. Quite rightly people are expressing a view on this and bringing pressure to bear. But it is my experience that broader differences of opinion are better tackled by dialogue rather than condemnation. I do not agree with the way women are treated in some other countries (or, for that matter, often in the UK) but when we discuss and debate we may influence and perhaps change things, albeit more slowly than we would perhaps hope. When we condemn we leave people with no alternative - we say they are wrong, and they say we are wrong, and that is where nothing changes at all.

I agree with much of this. However, whilst I'd-lomatic links need to be maintained I wouldn't support them via tourism.

And in South Africa, they had apartheid. To criticise that is racist. You can't criticise other countries and base them on Western standards. They have their own culture there and part of that culture was to segregate society along racial divides.

Oh for fuck's sake.

@poppyzbrite4 are you actually serious re: SA that is the funniest thing I've read all week. So I suppose when we criticise apartheid we're being racist to the white ruling class there who wanted to maintain the system? And there was no local opposition to apartheid at all then?

@poppyzbrite4 hard to know where to begin with your post, but for starters, I can assure you it is not and never has been 'racist' to criticise apartheid.

I was being sarcastic. There have been accusations of racism when people have pointed out human rights violations.

But please, fire away.

I was being sarcastic.

Thank god. I had to check your previous posts to make sure, as it was not very obvious.

@poppyzbrite4

I was being sarcastic. There have been accusations of racism when people have pointed out human rights violations.

But please, fire away.

goes to show that sarcasm never works that well in print I suppose