How do women square holidaying in Dubai with the lived reality of UAE women?

[Bouncealot]

Never understood a friend raving about the luxury, lack of crime, cleanliness, attentiveness of hotel and retail staff, when I had watched documentaries on slave labour, especially Philippine and Pakistani people denied passports, sleeping on kitchen floors and UAEs refusal to give stats on FGM to WHO. Just listened to Woman’s Hour discussion on the Princess Latifa case. It seems not a subject for discussion when people are planning ‘sunshine breaks’.
IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

I don’t disagree with you at all.

I’ve been to Dubai - for work but it did have an element of social time so I was able to see some sights / the malls / beach etc.

It is lovely from the perspective of being clean, safe, fun, modern and of course higher degrees of luxury than say Europe / the med.

But you’re right - I heard a few things said when I was there about the caste system, the treatment of Indian and Pakistani men in almost slave labour circumstances.

But what you apply to Dubai / the ME you can apply to lots and lots of places, for different reasons maybe but valid reasons.

For example there are many people who will not visit places like Cyprus and Greece due to the treatment of stray animals.

You’re not wrong at all to ask why these things don’t matter to people but when you start asking that question you soon find that pretty much everything in life is problematic, if you look at it from different angles.

Most people just want to live their lives, they do care but don’t see where they would make a difference to the bigger picture. It’s the ignorance is bliss aspect. People are not fundamentally bad are they, but taking on the worlds wrongs in your every day life isn’t what we are built to do

agree @Tekoa, dubai is bad, i agree. but those threads, honestly... everyone happy to holiday in israel with their chinese luggage and accessories, but nooo, would never go to Dubai. hypocrisy at the highest level

Why do you only want to know how women “square” this, how about men? I am sure you don’t mean to, but reading your title excuses men from lack of morality about the way people are tried there.

Total detail here but interested to know if anyone else has this ... I've just had an ad pop up for a Surrogacy service? WTF?

Yanbu, personally I would never go.
Many colleagues do holiday there, others I know work or have worked there.
I dont know if they live in a vacuum and dont read the news or simply dont care, probably a bit of both.
For the people who work there that I know are imo in complete denial about human rights, they say its all fine because from a privileged position they dont see any problems, they are also have lucrative contracts which probably helps them turn a blind eye.
DH was offered an opportunity to work there years ago, we could have paid off our mortgage very quickly if we went but as a woman and mother to 3 daughters there is no way I would want to live there

It’s not a country I would visit let alone live in for many of the reasons posted. However there are countries I visit that have a lot of poverty, gender inequality or aren’t democracies for example.

UAE is a whole other level though

I think a lot of women who go are naive to that their status as a westerner always protect them. And on the whole I’ve noticed that people who love to go like to pretend to be rich or feel comfortable about showing off being rich

A lot could be said for other countries including the UK. Every country has their own good and bad sides. People will never take action unless it directly affects them. I personally haven't been and have no interest in going as it doesn't interest me. I don't like the idea of man made sites and luxurious hotels with no culture other than money talking and being surrounded by skyscrapers in a 40c+ desert heat. I like holidays where I can experience the local culture, see history and obviously holiday. Everyone has their own preference when it comes to holiday and I don't think it's right to call them out on it because in return, they can call you out on how YOU think it's ok to live under your gov where your own gov is responsible for millions across the globe having no homes. Every country has blood on their hands UK not being an exception. Look at the relationship between Saudi Arabia and the UK.

I know it beggars belief I've never seen the attraction of dubai etc.

I was visiting my brother in another Gulf state, and he drove us to Dubai for a weekend.

I found it odd. Amazing how it has been built from desert; really strange to see Debenhams and Waitrose there in the mall, but oddest of all for me was hearing the adhan sounding round the shopping mall. It was the juxtaposition of God and Mammon that I found odd. I also found it a bit jarring when women in abayas were sporting very tight jeans and stripper heels. Db said an abaya was the equivalent of a mac there.

Not sure I would want to go again.

The question about why visiting men aren’t held to the same standards is something I have asked myself recently. I don’t like the lack of freedom for women everywhere of course and can’t entirely justify it. There is nevertheless something oddly grating to my mind about the image of a privileged western woman wandering about laughing and playing with nary a thought where local women wouldn’t dare to raise their voices. Men journeying abroad for sex I will judge more, and would like to see the law judge too, throw the book at them, but for the rest the local contrast in privilege isn’t so high.

I have lived and worked in Dubai. for several years. I have two teenage daughters. I see lots of opinions expressed here and I wanted to take the opportunity to share some facts about Dubai so as to better inform the debate.

The UAE (Dubai is one of seven Emirates) is less than 50 years old
The current Ruler of Dubai has held the position since 2008
Almost half of the Federal National Council who govern the country are women
Emiratis make up just 15% of the UAE population
It is illegal to withhold a persons passport
Economic migrants (expats) make up the majority of the population
Residents are required to be sponsored by a employer, this extends to family members
Pakistanis, Indians, Nepalese and Filipinos make up most of the blue collar workers (BCW)
These blue colour workers almost exclusively send their income back to their home country
If you speak to the workers you find that they are happy to be in Dubai because they can earn far more money than in their home countres
In response to criticism living conditions for blue collar workers have for some time been strictly regulated
All employers are required to provide health insurance to their employees
All employers provide funds or pay for their employees to fly home once a year
Levels of crime are likely extremely low
If a woman is a resident but doesn't work then she may require the approval of her husband to do certain things, like obtaining a credit card. In general these rules aren't aimed at specific genders but reflect institutional concerns about things like debt.
Women can go out to bars and restaurants on their own and not experience harassment.
Dubai is tolerant of other countries cultures and religions.

The UAE is not perfect but in my experience some of the criticisms leveled at it are outdated, based on isolated examples or reflect different cultural norms.

If you speak to the workers you find that they are happy to be in Dubai because they can earn far more money than in their home countres

This is true all across the Gulf. They will take the risk of something going wrong in order to earn money in amounts that is almost impossible back home.

The issue is really more complicated than the simple black-and-white views I’m reading here. Remittances from the Gulf are an important source of income for many South Asian families.

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

Whilst i agree men too should be outraged, for me as a woman reading about the experience of the Princess (whose treatment while hostage, let's be honest will be a more privileged version of say you or I), it's easier to relate to how these things could happen. And very quickly.

There are some abuses of human rights which we'll feel more keenly than men. Another example of why biology matters.

Actually Latifa's treatment while hostage is unlikely to be more privileged than our lives. By a long shot. Last time she was held hostage, after attempting to flee and getting picked up my Indian special forces in Indian waters and returned to her father, she recorded a video. She suffered beatings and things like no sanitary products and not being given any soap. Kept in a building in one of the palace compounds in a small room with a sweat soaked abd blood stained blanket, no toothbrush/pate and when she finally got soap, it was a washing liquid pod (like Ariel) so she had to use that. She was guarded. It was solitary confinement.

Don't imagine that princess = status. There are a lot and it just mean the ruler has absolute control of your life. It means status outside palace gates (when you're allowed out) but the guards aren't deferential because she's "a princess". Their boss is the ruler abd she's a piece of shit to them because that's what she is to him.

Oh yes and she was also drugged.

Her video used to be on YouTube. Her (half) sister Shamsia I think, also was imprisoned for wanting to leave.

@PineapplePower

If you speak to the workers you find that they are happy to be in Dubai because they can earn far more money than in their home countres

This is true all across the Gulf. They will take the risk of something going wrong in order to earn money in amounts that is almost impossible back home.

The issue is really more complicated than the simple black-and-white views I’m reading here. Remittances from the Gulf are an important source of income for many South Asian families.

Just cos someone is so desperate that they are willing to work without safety standards and live in conditions that are substandard, doesn't mean the rich should take advantage of them. Or abuse them.

There are shades of grey in some of this, but not in how Dubai systematically takes advantage of those in abject poverty - unless it's some PR thing. Or in how it's completely unnecessary. Especially now.

It’s a type isn’t, and in my experience they don’t tend to be terribly strong on the old grey matter, so that explains it nicely for me.

Just cos someone is so desperate that they are willing to work without safety standards and live in conditions that are substandard, doesn't mean the rich should take advantage of them. Or abuse them

And highlights on the abuses have made the situation in the Gulf better for all workers, so it is really important to report on them.

BUT they should still go and make money. It’s too important a source of income and it really is not ‘slave labour’ as they make money to support their families and open businesses and such in their home countries.

There are shades of grey in some of this, but not in how Dubai systematically takes advantage of those in abject poverty - unless it's some PR thing. Or in how it's completely unnecessary. Especially now

No one is forcing anyone to go to Dubai. They can remain home. And there is some risk of getting a bad employer, yes. But the risk of staying home and staying in poverty exists at the same time.

Or in how it's completely unnecessary. Especially now

How is it completely unnecessary? They still need money.

Sure they can go home and spend their earnings. Once they've got their passport back

aweegc fair point and I'd read up on her treatment which was shocking. The point I'd tried (not well!) to make was if that's how his daughter is treated, imagine how they'd treat a western woman like you or I.

I can only speak for Dubai and the UAE but the perception that there are no safety standards for, say construction workers, is simply untrue - rules and regulations apply and are enforced. Generally ,the health and safety of blue collar workers is taken seriously. They all receive free health care and at the time of writing most will have already received their COVID-19 vaccinations.

Most expats from the Philippines or the sub-continent will live in an apartment. Those working as a maid or nanny will generally live with the family that employ them. If you are a construction worker you will likely live with your colleagues in an apartment block. These are not, as many people believe, hidden deep in the desert and those living there will generally be provided with access to medical, sports and leisure facilities. The primary reason for them all living in one place is that it makes it easier for them to get to from work (they are taken to and from whatever site they are working on by bus each day).

The average construction worker in the UAE earns $14 an hour - the US minimum wage is currently $7.25 an hour and the UK minimum wage is around $12 an hour. Unlike the UK and the USA the UAE has no income tax and VAT is only 5%.

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

Sure they can go home and spend their earnings. Once they've got their passport back

aweegc fair point and I'd read up on her treatment which was shocking. The point I'd tried (not well!) to make was if that's how his daughter is treated, imagine how they'd treat a western woman like you or I.

A law was passed in 2002 that made it illegal for employers in the UAE to keep hold of an employees passport.

As an aside, all passports technically belong to the Government of the country that issued them.

Sure they can go home and spend their earnings. Once they've got their passport back

You don’t get it. They send money back to their families weekly or monthly. It’s not spending money they toss around blithely, they use it to better their family circumstances.

Yes, abuses do happen. They know that when they apply to these jobs. But the pay is so attractive that they will risk bad employers. And the majority do come home much better off.

Who are you to say they shouldn’t do it?

@Bouncealot

Never understood a friend raving about the luxury, lack of crime, cleanliness, attentiveness of hotel and retail staff, when I had watched documentaries on slave labour, especially Philippine and Pakistani people denied passports, sleeping on kitchen floors and UAEs refusal to give stats on FGM to WHO. Just listened to Woman’s Hour discussion on the Princess Latifa case. It seems not a subject for discussion when people are planning ‘sunshine breaks’. IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

FGM is illegal in the UAE. Similarly, it has been illegal since 2002 for an employer to withhold an employees passport.

Most properties (apartments and villas) in Dubai have designated rooms (generally with en-suites) for maids. There are laws in place to protect these employees and to ensure that any abuse is dealt with quickly and robustly.

Some of the things the law entitles domestic workers include:
payment of wages, as set out in the standard contract, within 10 days from the day they are due
30 days paid vacation per year
medical insurance provided by the employer

decent accommodation
decent meals at the employer’s expense
attire suitable for the job to be carried out, at the employer’s expense
possession of their personal identification papers such as passports, IDs, etc.

A domestic worker can refer a dispute to Ministry of Human Resources and Emiratisation. The ministry will attempt to resolve the dispute amicably within a period of two weeks. If it is not resolved within two weeks, then the matter will be referred to a court.
Cases filed by workers are exempt from court fees at all stages of litigation and must be heard in a speedy and prompt manner.

Other elements of the law relating to domestic workers prohibit:
the employment of anyone under the age 18
discrimination on the basis of race, colour, gender, religion and political opinion
sexual harassment, whether verbal or physical
forced labour or trafficking in accordance with national law and ratified international conventions
exposure to physical harm
assignment of tasks that are not covered under the contract.

Could it be that laws have been put in place to pay lip service to international trade conventions? What matters is how justice plays out in reality.

I talk about women’s attitudes, firstly as this is mumsnet and secondly that women should at least empathise and understand the true nature of FGM, which is not reported To WHO by MI countries. publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmhaff/390/39003.htm

@Factsareimportant

I have lived and worked in Dubai. for several years. I have two teenage daughters. I see lots of opinions expressed here and I wanted to take the opportunity to share some facts about Dubai so as to better inform the debate.

The UAE (Dubai is one of seven Emirates) is less than 50 years old
The current Ruler of Dubai has held the position since 2008
Almost half of the Federal National Council who govern the country are women
Emiratis make up just 15% of the UAE population
It is illegal to withhold a persons passport
Economic migrants (expats) make up the majority of the population
Residents are required to be sponsored by a employer, this extends to family members
Pakistanis, Indians, Nepalese and Filipinos make up most of the blue collar workers (BCW)
These blue colour workers almost exclusively send their income back to their home country
If you speak to the workers you find that they are happy to be in Dubai because they can earn far more money than in their home countres
In response to criticism living conditions for blue collar workers have for some time been strictly regulated
All employers are required to provide health insurance to their employees
All employers provide funds or pay for their employees to fly home once a year
Levels of crime are likely extremely low
If a woman is a resident but doesn't work then she may require the approval of her husband to do certain things, like obtaining a credit card. In general these rules aren't aimed at specific genders but reflect institutional concerns about things like debt.
Women can go out to bars and restaurants on their own and not experience harassment.
Dubai is tolerant of other countries cultures and religions.

The UAE is not perfect but in my experience some of the criticisms leveled at it are outdated, based on isolated examples or reflect different cultural norms.

Seem to remember Mohammed taking the throne in 2006.