How do women square holidaying in Dubai with the lived reality of UAE women?

[Bouncealot]

Never understood a friend raving about the luxury, lack of crime, cleanliness, attentiveness of hotel and retail staff, when I had watched documentaries on slave labour, especially Philippine and Pakistani people denied passports, sleeping on kitchen floors and UAEs refusal to give stats on FGM to WHO. Just listened to Woman’s Hour discussion on the Princess Latifa case. It seems not a subject for discussion when people are planning ‘sunshine breaks’.
IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

Also Cuba which has a very poor human rights record yet is seen a cool holiday destination

Problem is that the West which comprises about 20%ish of the worlds population likes to tell everyone that its values - good and bad - must be universal.

Yes the point about Hong Kong is well made - the slavery there is also invisible and full of expats claiming their fabulous lifestyles on top of it.

@whataboutbob

That’s a different conversation. Yes I can see that being in a country with all the trappings of consumerism but an Islamic infrastructure must be pleasant if you are Muslim, absolutely . It’s the fact that the west is held to different standards, by Muslims, when it comes to treatment of Muslims, that irks me.

By who? Not by me. The top 3 visitors to Dubai in 2019 were Indians, Saudis and Brits.

@Bouncealot

Never understood a friend raving about the luxury, lack of crime, cleanliness, attentiveness of hotel and retail staff, when I had watched documentaries on slave labour, especially Philippine and Pakistani people denied passports, sleeping on kitchen floors and UAEs refusal to give stats on FGM to WHO. Just listened to Woman’s Hour discussion on the Princess Latifa case. It seems not a subject for discussion when people are planning ‘sunshine breaks’. IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

Completely agree.

I do judge people who spend money in those countries on a cheap jolly pretending those issues don't exist.

@5zeds Malaysia is at least a democracy and they are drafting laws and have plans to curb child marriage. It still has a long way to go but I would not say its the same as Dubai. Malaysia is a very unequal country and places like Penang and KL are much more progressive- many female MPs and women in business. Also Malaysia is a multicultural country and the Chinese and Indians are not subject to sharia law.

@GerardWay123

Yes, Hong Kong. But in London there are approx 10,000 people sleeping rough in the worlds 3rd richest city by GDP

Despite being offered a free trip to Dubai by a friend whose son teaches there, I wouldn't go. I worked in Student accommodation a couple of years ago and a few staff petitioned the office manager to stop giving the stuff the students left behind when they went home to the British Heart Foundation. The reason being, the heart foundation operates on cats hearts; uproar. I disagreed because of how small a new born's heart is and they are equal size.
A couple of weeks later, one of the girls is having a hen party in Dubai, the more that go the cheaper they can book for. Did I want to go? Did I fuck! I would not add a single penny to their economy! They were shocked! It did lead to something of an argument because I totally judged them and their pathetic Vegan fucking whining. And by the way, dairy cows don't need hormones to keep lactating, I know because I grew up on a dairy farm. Fucking numb skulls. By the way, I have no problem with knowledgeable Vegans who actually eat vegetables and understand how food is produced, instead of the processed shite (but it tastes just like chicken) they buy. I can't wait for the scandals that will come (OMG it really was chicken). They still went to Dubai!

It’s the fact that the west is held to different standards, by Muslims, when it comes to treatment of Muslims, that irks me.

I keep forgetting that muslims are all one homogenous group and not individual human beings. I also like how you’ve decided to blame all muslims for the actions of UAE.

I'm with you OP, the record on human rights in Dubai is disgusting and I wouldn't go there if you paid me.

Imo, having holidays there is on a par with going on holiday to South Africa under apartheid.

@saracorona

Despite being offered a free trip to Dubai by a friend whose son teaches there, I wouldn't go. I worked in Student accommodation a couple of years ago and a few staff petitioned the office manager to stop giving the stuff the students left behind when they went home to the British Heart Foundation. The reason being, the heart foundation operates on cats hearts; uproar. I disagreed because of how small a new born's heart is and they are equal size. A couple of weeks later, one of the girls is having a hen party in Dubai, the more that go the cheaper they can book for. Did I want to go? Did I fuck! I would not add a single penny to their economy! They were shocked! It did lead to something of an argument because I totally judged them and their pathetic Vegan fucking whining. And by the way, dairy cows don't need hormones to keep lactating, I know because I grew up on a dairy farm. Fucking numb skulls. By the way, I have no problem with knowledgeable Vegans who actually eat vegetables and understand how food is produced, instead of the processed shite (but it tastes just like chicken) they buy. I can't wait for the scandals that will come (OMG it really was chicken). They still went to Dubai!

Christ on a bike

A friend of mine is a woman and a lesbian and lives out there for work. I literally don't know how she can fathom it.

saracorona

^Despite being offered a free trip to Dubai by a friend whose son teaches there, I wouldn't go. I worked in Student accommodation a couple of years ago and a few staff petitioned the office manager to stop giving the stuff the students left behind when they went home to the British Heart Foundation. The reason being, the heart foundation operates on cats hearts; uproar. I disagreed because of how small a new born's heart is and they are equal size.
A couple of weeks later, one of the girls is having a hen party in Dubai, the more that go the cheaper they can book for. Did I want to go? Did I fuck! I would not add a single penny to their economy! They were shocked! It did lead to something of an argument because I totally judged them and their pathetic Vegan fucking whining. And by the way, dairy cows don't need hormones to keep lactating, I know because I grew up on a dairy farm. Fucking numb skulls. By the way, I have no problem with knowledgeable Vegans who actually eat vegetables and understand how food is produced, instead of the processed shite (but it tastes just like chicken) they buy. I can't wait for the scandals that will come (OMG it really was chicken). They still went to Dubai^

Those are certainly all words.

@CounsellorTroi

And how many people reading this thread on Apple products, who are known for their poor working conditions in China?

Not me, they're on my boycott list too!

They don't think about this at all IME. I've known several Brits who lived Dubai and all they ever talked about is how much money they saved on tax and swimming pools where they lived and how pissed they got (in licensed hotels of course) every weekend.

I also know loads who've been there on hols and it's all about the shopping, shopping shopping...

I don't get it either. I've stayed overnight in UAE but that was just for a connecting flight. That was enough.

I think some people are just ignorant. Occasionally you get stories of Europeans going to the police there to report rape or sexual assault and they end up in jail. Even read of a case of a gay man going into the police station and not realising that he shouldn't be telling them he's gay.

There are no labour laws for domestic workers who are basically all female. Their situation is dire and basically modern-day slavery. I wouldn't want my money going there.

@Cam77

Also Cuba which has a very poor human rights record yet is seen a cool holiday destination

Problem is that the West which comprises about 20%ish of the worlds population likes to tell everyone that its values - good and bad - must be universal.

Any country that still beheads stones and cuts off it's citizens hands, in this day and age does not have values. As a Westeener I don't admire those so called values. For that reason I would not want to go there.

@SimonJT

It’s the fact that the west is held to different standards, by Muslims, when it comes to treatment of Muslims, that irks me.

I keep forgetting that muslims are all one homogenous group and not individual human beings. I also like how you’ve decided to blame all muslims for the actions of UAE.

Islam itself has the concept of Muslim ummah or collective community of Muslims. This is a concept repeatedly expounded in the Coran , that when one part of the Muslim community or body suffers, the whole body suffers. I’m not blaming all Muslims for the UAEs actions, rather the selective indignation shown by most Muslim nations when they get upset about Muslim minorities suffering in western lands or Israel , but less so if it is say in China or in another Muslim country .

The dinner party happened in this country. Pre 9/11 some uk businesses were indeed courting Taliban as useful partners ; attitudes to regimes change over time. I started the thread as a result of listening to the Woman’s Hour interview. It is interesting to learn of abuses in other places I can look up. Are these abuses as widespread in other countries which affecting over half the population, whilst peddling luxury holidays?

What exactly is wrong with Western values - many of us were raised with them. If we don't want to holiday in or work in places with standards below that, isn't that our choice. Yes it is a judgment as what is relatively better.

To be fair, I don't really see how not holidaying in Dubai would alleviate the plight of the women there. As the majority of workers there are foreigners, presumably they would just lose their jobs and that would put them in an even more precarious position with no option for them to remit money back to their home countries. They are in Dubai for the money to feed their families.

You would be better off buying an electric car or using public transport if you can't afford an electric car. The gulf states are propped up on oil; without the black gold, they are nothing. The rise of wahabi islam all over the world and becoming a dominant stream is because of oil money- they are the ones who can afford to build mosques and sponsor extremist Imams. I look forward to the day when we no longer require oil and these despotic regimes would no longer be propped up. Hopefully they would not be replaced by religious extremists..

In the same way that most people boycotted South Africa during apartheid we should of course be boycotting countries where women and other marginalized groups are treated so badly.

It's a no brainer right? Except to selfish arseholes who care nothing for others.

@LexMitior Westerners do not have sole claim over human rights or feminism. In fact, for many arab countries, the sponsorship of islamic extremist factions by successive western governments has led to an erosion of human rights.

@Bouncealot

Never understood a friend raving about the luxury, lack of crime, cleanliness, attentiveness of hotel and retail staff, when I had watched documentaries on slave labour, especially Philippine and Pakistani people denied passports, sleeping on kitchen floors and UAEs refusal to give stats on FGM to WHO. Just listened to Woman’s Hour discussion on the Princess Latifa case. It seems not a subject for discussion when people are planning ‘sunshine breaks’. IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

Do you feel the same about going to Ireland, OP? Despite the fact that you can’t get an abortion there?

The UK also treat the poor terribly. Zero hour contracts and plenty of migrants in London are exploited and live 10 to a room. Why don’t you complain about that?

I think people here complain more about Dubai because it’s a Muslim country, not because it’s any worse than anywhere else.

@LexMitior

www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/the-real-roots-of-sexism-in-the-middle-east-its-not-islam-race-or-hate/256362/

'Some of the most important architects of institutionalized Arab misogyny weren't actually Arab. They were Turkish or, as they called themselves at the time, Ottoman British, and French. These foreigners ruled Arabs for centuries, twisting the cultures to accommodate their dominance. One of their favorite tricks was to buy the submission of men by offering them absolute power over women. The foreign overlords ruled the public sphere, local men ruled the private sphere, and women got nothing; academic Deniz Kandiyoti called this the "patriarchal bargain." Colonial powers employed it in the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, and in South Asia, promoting misogynist ideas and misogynist men who might have otherwise stayed on the margins, slowly but surely ingraining these ideas into the societies.'

How do you square buying high street clothes with slave labour?
How do you square buying your laptop/mobile phone/ electronics which will not last forever and the UN warnings about all toxic waste dumped in developing countries?

Same thing...

you can share your "discoveries" which have been common knowledge for decades without trying to sound so superior.

What exactly are you trying to achieve?