How do women square holidaying in Dubai with the lived reality of UAE women?

[Bouncealot]

Never understood a friend raving about the luxury, lack of crime, cleanliness, attentiveness of hotel and retail staff, when I had watched documentaries on slave labour, especially Philippine and Pakistani people denied passports, sleeping on kitchen floors and UAEs refusal to give stats on FGM to WHO. Just listened to Woman’s Hour discussion on the Princess Latifa case. It seems not a subject for discussion when people are planning ‘sunshine breaks’.
IABU judge other women’s holiday choices and experiences?

“ earning money”.

I used to live in Dubai many many years ago - no desire to return.

I agree with what you are saying in terms of both women’s and human rights in the Gulf but where do you draw the line here? The attention might be on Dubai thanks to last night’s documentary but the UAE is hardly the only place in which women’s rights are a very serious issue or indeed human rights are problematic. Of the top of my head that would include Saudi, Israel, Turkey, China just for starters. Add in countries with awful animal welfare and terrible environmental track records and it you end up with a huge number of countries you’ll never set foot in.

@Carycy

Because 80% of the year this country is cold an miserable. And Dubai is an easy place to go in the winter for a break and for sunshine. As someone who lives in the drizzly north west I can totally understand that. I don’t agree with the politics of a lot of countries but nothing going there to get involved in their politics. Going because of the geography.

But people going their are funding their government.

If you holiday in Dubai, Saudi, the Maldives etc you are giving money to the system.

Tbh, thinking further there is some terrible human rights issues including towards gay people and women in many countries I’ve traveled to. Particularly in the developing world there is quite often open homophobia and sexism. When visiting Southern Africa many locals openly expressed views that I would consider anti Semitic (Jews like money etc). But I find it interesting to visit other countries and although I’d prefer for human rights to be universal in knowledge and implementation, I don’t necessarily think it should stop you visiting other countries.

Britain, the US and Dubai are not the same. We have accountablility. It's not perfect but at least its there.
If I stand in the street and scream I hate Boris Johnson, nothing will happen to me.

Unfortunately cheap labour from other countries is everywhere. I've been to Malta a few times. The hotel staff are low paid and many come in from other countries to work hard and send money back home to their wife & children. They haven't seen them for months.

I imagine they might be allowed to leave Malta however if they wished? Cheap labour is not the same thing as what happens in Dubai.

@whataboutbob - people from Bangladesh and Pakistan make a (relative) fortune in Dubai. I have a close friend from Pakistan - he told me his families servants are happy to work for room and board in Pakistan. They can do much better in Dubai - can make enough even to build a house or set up a business in a few years. You are judging them by your standards of living rather than theirs.

Not to say there’s no exploitation but lots of opportunities too that people in developing countries happily take.

I agree. It seems Dubai is catnip to many though. I know I’m being controversial and will get taken down, but its popularity with British Muslims puzzles me, as many of the exploited construction workers are co religionists from Bangladesh etc. But maybe they figure they would be exploited in Bangladesh/ Pakistan/ India too, and at least they’re owning money in Dubai.

I don't enjoy Dubai, but I can see why it's popular with Muslims. Halal food everywhere, no fear of racist attacks, not made to feel 'other' (my mum wears a headscarf and people in European countries stare).

Plus, let's not hold to Muslims to higher standards.

Half my family do like the stunning word though, eg they would describe a dress or outfit as stunning.

oops wrong thread

YANBU. I wouldn't go there for all the tea in China. It's conveniently ignored by those who like a good time in the sunshine but if they were to get on the wrong side of the law they could fight themselves locked up or fined. I suspect they'd be the first to complain about how jolly unfair it is then.

targeted criticism on threads like this because it's seen as tacky and lower-class.

I agree hence the Essex comment. I don't see threads about not going to Mexico or Thailand.

Also Cuba which has a very poor human rights record yet is seen a cool holiday destination.

Muslims are not a homogeneous group. Dh is an Arab Muslim and despises Saudis and people from the Gulf for many different reasons. A lot of Arabs think the ruling family of Dubai are complete hypocrites by promoting the type of tourism they do in Dubai while claiming to be religious. My dh hates them for their politics. He has an insult for them in Arabic which I wish I could translate!

Maybe you should write a list of acceptable countries to visit OP.

@SharonasCorona

I agree. It seems Dubai is catnip to many though. I know I’m being controversial and will get taken down, but its popularity with British Muslims puzzles me, as many of the exploited construction workers are co religionists from Bangladesh etc. But maybe they figure they would be exploited in Bangladesh/ Pakistan/ India too, and at least they’re owning money in Dubai.

I don't enjoy Dubai, but I can see why it's popular with Muslims. Halal food everywhere, no fear of racist attacks, not made to feel 'other' (my mum wears a headscarf and people in European countries stare).

Plus, let's not hold to Muslims to higher standards.

That’s a different conversation. Yes I can see that being in a country with all the trappings of consumerism but an Islamic infrastructure must be pleasant if you are Muslim, absolutely . It’s the fact that the west is held to different standards, by Muslims, when it comes to treatment of Muslims, that irks me.

@SharonasCorona why don't they go to places like Langkawi in Malaysia or Bali in Indonesia. Both muslim majority countries and the beaches are gorgeous and its cheap too. And you can do the shopping in either KL or Singapore which are both also nearby and have all the luxury shops that Dubai has.

Not that those countries are not problematic but in malaysia at least, they treat women a lot better.

Yanbu

I would never visit the UAE. It's a disgusting place.

I don't get the appeal, but like with a lot of travel ethics questions that have come up, I think some prefer to focus their ethical work elsewhere or just don't see the point in considering it over how much they value traveling. For many of us where it's very easy not to travel, it can seem odd that others seem to treat not doing so as an attack on them or the people of the area we're not traveling to.

I think it's a bit ridiculous to try to call people hypocrites for not wanting to do something with UAE and encouraging others to do similar for not doing everything and boycotting everywhere. We get it: no ethical consumption under capitalism, we're all part of shitty systems and there is definitely more most of us can do on our own doorstep and those things shouldn't be ignored -- there is an issue with UK systems liking to point the finger elsewhere while there is shite to work on here that many are trying, but just because people have chosen this specific way they feel can help reduce suffering and want others to consider it doesn't mean the whatbouttery makes any sense. Everyone's acceptable list will be different.

It's quite possible to support people fighting for better without visiting a country. I've donated to several US-based charities and organizations, even as an American who hasn't been in the US in nearly 20 years and won't be returning anytime soon. No matter how many great people are in a space, it doesn't mean anyone should feel they should risk themselves or spend their time and money there -- and as previously said, I think those concerns are there for a lot of people.

I think Rowenasemolina's list is a good start for those who want to do more at home with or without travel as well, though I think with the ways many companies layer things and some companies now selling second hand and things makers would otherwise throw away with labels cut-off, sweatshops is one the harder areas for me to feel confident on trying to avoid.

Agree, will never visit for all the reasons already stated, I have also educated my sons about human rights in Dubai so they understand why we don’t go. Lots of friends have been and see is as just another sun holiday.

Indian women can vote. Yet women are sexually assaulted on an horrific scale. I'm not sure how being able to vote, makes up for the fact that the police have carte blanche to wipe our your race with no repercussions. Indigenous Canadians have the vote. Doesn't stop the abuse they suffer within a so called democracy. Having a vote isn't a magic shield.

No, it's not a magic shield, but it's a start.

The difference with Dubai is that there is really no part that isn't under the control of the ruling family.

You might disagree with Canadian politicians, but you really, really can't compare any country with a viable opposition party to a country like Dubai.

Spending a couple of weeks in country X doesn't mean you agree with all the mad stuff that goes on there. I guess wouldn't visit if I felt v.v. strongly about a law somewhere though. But I wouldn't make a big song and dance about it either as nowhere is perfect.

What's wrong with staying in European countries with a decent human rights record? I would imagine that not everyone wants to stay huddled in Europe making catsbum faces at the rest of the world. Some of us aren’t from Europe, or spouses aren’t or enjoy seeing how others live.

Malaysia still allows child brides, has serious stateless person issues, but it is beautiful if somewhat further than the Middle East. The UAE despite all the shopping malls and hotels has some beautiful scenery and wildlife but you’d have to go out of town just as you would in the UK.

It’s very far from ideal but it isn’t unusual. Women are treated appallingly in many parts of the world.

@SharonasCorona the conservative Muslims I know would never go to Dubai, unless on business, and prefer Malaysia, Indonesia or Turkey.

Hong Kong is a beautiful city but look beneath it and you'll find the Hong Kong workers cages.
The people that leave their families and villages to make the things the Western World want for next to nothing.
The whole of the Western World needs to take a good hard look at itself.